At what age of player do you apply the Law?

I was doing ins and outs for my lads away U15 game on Sunday. My lad was 1-on-1 with the keeper in the box, tried to go around but was brought down by the keeper's dive. Ref (30+ years of experience, so he kept telling the players) gives a pen. Other parents call for a red by I put them straight with its just a yellow as it was a genuine attempt for the ball. However, the ref gives neither, just a bit of a word with the keeper. At half time, I ask the ref why no card and his view was that he treats U16 games as development and would rather educate the player rather than caution them as most weekends they only get Superdad ref rather than a proper ref. Lets just say we had a wee bit of a falling out over this.

- OK, so the keeper now knows it's wrong to bring a player down in the box....hang on, he probably knew that before the game.
- when players reach the ripe old age of 16 they don't suddenly develop a superior knowledge of TLoTG (we know that most never do).
- before we get something right, we will most likely get it wrong a few times trying to get it right. But if there are no consequences to getting it wrong, the opportunity for reflection and improvement has been missed.
- if we have the luxury of a proper ref at a game, surely all the players (not just the keeper) would benefit if he demonstrated by action, and not just by word, the Laws of the Game.

Like to hear your thoughts on this leniency / education point of view, especially as I'll be the Superdad ref in a couple of weeks for the return home fixture.

So, another referee who shouldn't be doing youth games then?
Laws can be bent, not broken.
Full laws are applied as soon as the players are doing 11-a-side on a full sized field. That means the mandatory laws - short removal, DOGSO - will be applied. Discretionary things are always applied as such.
U/15 is plenty, plenty, PLENTY old enough to apply the laws. The keeper knows he can get sent off for taking down the player. Don't card the players and they'll walk all over you - even at U/11 and U/12 players get taught that a lot of referees won't card them because 'oh it's just youth', so they'll walk all over the referee and the opponents.
Sounds like the one you watched is the sort of referee who thinks that cards are purely for match control. Which is an absurd notion. If you're not going to do your job you shouldn't be on the pitch.
I have no qualms whatsoever with being tough at your age group - and partly that's because I remember how aggressive we could be when I played in that age group!
If he wants to referee development games with no cards he should be off doing those ridiculous academy games you guys have over there.

I generally don't bother with cards until I'm doing Veterans games. ...by that time they should know what's right and wrong so feel completely justified in bringing out the cards......

Of course you do get one or two who have started to forget so tend to be a bit more forgiving with them and suggest they take up walking football.

Hi
Cards should be definitely used at under 14/15s. At younger age groups it may not be necessary and it is a matter for the referee on the day. Some fouls are simply poor motor skills on both sides. Indeed some u11 get chuffed about getting a card as it rarely needed or happens.

i think someone posted something on here the other day, referring to an U11 game where a lad told him nicely to F**k off. i dont think theres an education point to be made there...

You apply the laws that are applicable to the age-group playing. From U11's and up, this is the full LotG. Below that age group, there are "Rules for small sided soccer" (or something similar). The latter is definitely about development and education, and of course enjoyment. On U11 and up, you can take age/skill level in to account when judging whether something is careless, reckless or excessive, but an intentional save on the goal line by someone other than the keeper, or a clear shirt pull to stop an attacker breaking past the defence with the ball, or as above - OFFINABUS - are growing to draw the appropriate cards.

Edit: To add, I've actually been thanked by managers before at lower age groups (U11+) for getting the cards out, as it reinforces the laws to their players and they sometimes struggle getting certain points across. A big problem though is the number of games that are refereed by managers/coaches/parents, who a) don't know the laws themselves, and b) don't appreciate that when they do referee, they have the full authority as if they were a qualified referee, including the ability to caution players.

Under 15 certainly know what they're doing. A few of them would be close to, or a year away from playing senior football. I

I've noticed that when I'm doing under 11s (modified rules here with NO cards) there have been many more instances this past season where a red card would've been warranted than higher age groups with full rules. I can think of 4 times out of 9 games in under 11s this past season - 1 violent conduct (one kid punched another in the back), 2 DOGSO (deliberate trips from behind when attacker is on to goal) , 1 DOGSO-H (keeper standing outside his box has caught the ball to stop it going in). So I'm certain that kids at that level know what they're doing and committed these offenses because they know they can't get sent off. Whereas in under 12,13 and above they were much more cautious not to foul . You see many matches get out of control because a club appointed Ref doesn't called anything, so I'm all in favour of using cards properly.
By all means, do your best to keep junior players on the pitch. Talk to managers about taking them off for a 'cool down' if they're getting too heated or close to a second yellow, talk to them on the pitch as much as possible, assert your authority early to dissuade dissent. But in this example, he fully deserved the yellow and the new laws have even helped by allowing you keep him on the pitch.

Padfoot said:

I generally don't bother with cards until I'm doing Veterans games. ...by that time they should know what's right and wrong so feel completely justified in bringing out the cards......

Of course you do get one or two who have started to forget so tend to be a bit more forgiving with them and suggest they take up walking football.

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@Padfoot you have just made me laugh actually genuinely made me laugh out loud or lol as the kids would say. I have seen you in a whole new light.

In the dim and distance past, you try to avoid carding in minor football.

Nowadays, U15 & U16 should treated as any other football match. If you would caution in adult football, you caution at this level. Their manager will have a coaching certificate, so they know what they are doing. Being Superdad, means that the next ref takes your cr4p for not doing it properly.

U12 to U14 is slightly different. More leeway has to be given for careless/reckless challenges but for the stupid offences (delay of game, shirt off to celebrate, dissent, OFFINABUS, etc) you need to do the job properly... Parents may not like it, but the kids see the EPL players do it at a weekend and get cautioned, so let them have the same result as their heroes.....

Younger, you are there to educate so hold off as much as possible.

2nd String Ref said:

Under 15 certainly know what they're doing. A few of them would be close to, or a year away from playing senior football. I

I've noticed that when I'm doing under 11s (modified rules here with NO cards) there have been many more instances this past season where a red card would've been warranted than higher age groups with full rules.
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are they allowed to modify the LOTG that way at any competition?

From my understanding, cards are not used at younger age groups (mini soccer) as a matter of convention, rather than law.

My RDO always says in for up to and including U14, be more lenient on cards, it doesn't mean don't use them but do so as a last resort. Things like OFFINABUS are always red, whatever age. 'DOGSO' (and I put it in inverted commas because at youth football I have seen misses on open goals from 2 yards out), can be red or yellow depending where the tackle was made and what has been going on in the game. U15 up, I treat as if it were an adult game but maybe give them one chance more than I give adults. It is about learning but it is also about making the players know that if they do x, y and z, then they are in trouble. I try to be really hot on dissent at those ages because it is just un-necessary. In your game I'd agree with what you did. Maybe edge towards sending the keeper off, depending on what I saw at the time. Some County FA's have handbooks on how to act with younger age groups. May be worth a look

pankaye said:

are they allowed to modify the LOTG that way at any competition?

From my understanding, cards are not used at younger age groups (mini soccer) as a matter of convention, rather than law.

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It only happens for 11 year old and below. A few changes to make it more enjoyable and put the focus on enjoyment and development. So it's half pitch or smaller, no offside, no cards, smaller box, keeper has to throw it out or kick off the ground.
The FA here have proposed to extend this another year to 12 year olds too. Some of it has merit, but around that age is when discipline starts to become an issue. It will be 'interesting'

The latest (I could find) FA Laws for Mini-Soccer attached.
Key point is quoted below (in my mind). These laws apply up to and including under 10's. Under 11's and upwards, full LotG apply.

Furthermore, referees should also recognise their role is to facilitate learning of the players, for example, allow young children to take a second attempt at a throw-in if the first is not within the Laws.

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The great age old argument raises it's ugly head once again, something everyone will never agree on. I certainly do not subscribe to the view that no player under the age of 18 should receive a card, as some referees (and coaches/parents) I have met suggested!

Personally think once they hit under 13s (11v11) the gloves are off and the managers/players should expect cards should the offence be serious enough to warrant it. I admitted on here that last season i made the mistake of trying to "manage" an u13s match without having to resort to cards and the players took advantage of it. Since that game, I have adjusted my tolerance levels of what I am prepared to put up with at youth levels. Whilst I am not advocating refs go on a card frenzy at this age, there comes a time where a referee has to say enough is enough. It's a funny age where some kids are showing classic signs of Harry Enfield's "Kevin" syndome and clearly don't like being told what to do!

As a referee & dad to a footy mad u14s son, I have ref'd and watched many youth matches over the past 7 years or so and noticed (just like the pros) there's a growing trend for players to kick the ball away after it's gone out of play or after the whistle has blown. Most occasions it's just a few yards, other times it's more blatant. Only on a couple of those occasions has the referee (club appointed helpers & FA appointed) spoken to or carded the player in question. It's habit that's rife in the game and presumably many of the players have never been told by their coaches or referees not to do it. In my final u13s game of last season, I carded a player for it. Following an offside decision against the same player, the defending right back positioned the ball and stepped back to take the free kick, as he went to kick it the attacker who was returning from his offside position kicked the ball off the defender's foot, did a few keep ups and then booted it back towards the keeper. Easiest yellow card ever and yet the look of amazement on the player's face when I summoned him over and pulled out my book was priceless.

So far not had a DOGSO in any of my games Youth & OA, but I guess sooner or later it just might happen. Referee's application of the law and what action people perceive the referee should take and at what age isn't helped by mass media myths regarding keepers handling outside the area, "last man" and "the new rules" .

I agree completely Moosey. By all means, change the laws to make it easier, safer and more enjoyable for small children. But get them used to the laws regarding discipline from the earliest possible age! No dissent, no kicking the ball away, no intentional fouls.

if an 11 year old is going to charge down a free kick, he's getting a caution. If his mate, who is an unused sub on the touchline, tells me I'm a f*cking cheat for instructing the free kick to be re-taken and a goal is scored, then I'm calling over his coach and explaining to the coach why I'm sending off his sub.

Oh sorry, you were asking for hypothetical situations. Already done this.

Brian Hamilton said:

if an 11 year old is going to charge down a free kick, he's getting a caution. If his mate, who is an unused sub on the touchline, tells me I'm a f*cking cheat for instructing the free kick to be re-taken and a goal is scored, then I'm calling over his coach and explaining to the coach why I'm sending off his sub.

Oh sorry, you were asking for hypothetical situations. Already done this.

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@Brian Hamilton - Do you also steal sweets from little children in the street?

Daddy, Daddy, there that mean nasty man again!

lincs22 said:

@Brian Hamilton - Do you also steal sweets from little children in the street?

Daddy, Daddy, there that mean nasty man again!

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No but if they steal them I will call the police

.... not the ghostbusters?

If i was told that i could not yellow/red players because of age or competition rules then i would not referee the game. Although i do not referee said age groups anyway. The exception being tournaments. Last season i refereed a tournament and it was U10 group that weekend. Player gets gets fouled he jumps up smacks player in mouth, said player gets red card, bearing in mind matches 12 minutes long and there was one minute left. If i was told then by the admin that i can't use cards then i would not have continued.