A&H

Dealing with Player Managers

Y

youwhatref?!

Member
My game today saw a player manager, and just had this thought to my self:

What do you do to send a player/manager off, in the managerial position? Obviously if he was playing, and shown a red he would be gone, but if I had to send him off from the touchline, would it be the same as sending a manager off, but can still play, or would I show him a red?
 
The Referee Store
If you send off a player, he has to leave the vicinity of the FOP for the rest of the match. If you send a manager from the sidelines, he has to leave the vicinity of the FOP for the rest of the match. If you send off a player-manager (as either a player or a manager), he has to be away from the FOP for the rest of the match.

And yes, he's lost his right to perform the "other" role as a result.
 
es1 said:
He's a sub so treat it that way! show the red card.
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GraemeS said:
If you send off a player, he has to leave the vicinity of the FOP for the rest of the match. If you send a manager from the sidelines, he has to leave the vicinity of the FOP for the rest of the match. If you send off a player-manager (as either a player or a manager), he has to be away from the FOP for the rest of the match.

And yes, he's lost his right to perform the "other" role as a result.
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cheers lads.
 
I once binned a manager from the sidelines for threatening behaviour and I then spotted him 5 minutes later back in position with a different coat on with his hood up.... Had great fun in threatening abandonment if he didn't sit in his car or something....
 
It is more complicated than this.

If a manager / coach is also named on the team sheet as a player you need to make sure you spot this before the game. If, for example, he uses irresponsible behaviour in the technical area he could be removed but still be allowed to come on as a substitute. Whereas if he commits an offence that would see him red carded as a player he would not be allowed to come on.

There is precedence for this - years ago Andy Hessenthaler was sent to the stands as manager only to then come on os a sub a few minutes later - he was allowed to as the offence he was removed from the TA for would not lead to a red card on the pitch.

At grass roots level you obviously aren't sending a manager to the stands, but the same applies albeit far less likely to actually happen.
 
RustyRef said:
It is more complicated than this.

If a manager / coach is also named on the team sheet as a player you need to make sure you spot this before the game. If, for example, he uses irresponsible behaviour in the technical area he could be removed but still be allowed to come on as a substitute. Whereas if he commits an offence that would see him red carded as a player he would not be allowed to come on.

There is precedence for this - years ago Andy Hessenthaler was sent to the stands as manager only to then come on os a sub a few minutes later - he was allowed to as the offence he was removed from the TA for would not lead to a red card on the pitch.

At grass roots level you obviously aren't sending a manager to the stands, but the same applies albeit far less likely to actually happen.
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What's the list of offences a manager can be sent away for? I generally apply roughly the same criteria as I would for an on-field player. If I feel the need to stop the game to go and talk to a manager, that's because he's committed a cautionable level of dissent - and if I were to ever have to send a manager away, it would be because he's either been warned and continued on the same behaviour, or because he's done something equivalent to a sending off offence.

Seems to me like this whole situation would be much clearer if we were authorised to show cards to team officials in the technical area. Having to work out if a person is a named substitute or not is an unnecessary complication, especially when it causes this kind of inconsistency. Wheras if I could show a yellow card, everyone would know that person is half way to being sent away regardless of their role within the club.
 
GraemeS said:
What's the list of offences a manager can be sent away for? I generally apply roughly the same criteria as I would for an on-field player. If I feel the need to stop the game to go and talk to a manager, that's because he's committed a cautionable level of dissent - and if I were to ever have to send a manager away, it would be because he's either been warned and continued on the same behaviour, or because he's done something equivalent to a sending off offence.

Seems to me like this whole situation would be much clearer if we were authorised to show cards to team officials in the technical area. Having to work out if a person is a named substitute or not is an unnecessary complication, especially when it causes this kind of inconsistency. Wheras if I could show a yellow card, everyone would know that person is half way to being sent away regardless of their role within the club.
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I don't think is one, but it is common sense really. The sort of things that Mourinho keeps getting into trouble for, they wouldn't get him sent off if he was a player but are deemed to be irresponsible behaviour in the technical area. So if he was a player manager he'd go into the stand but still be able to come on as a sub. Whereas if got into a fight with someone he'd effectively be removed for VC, which would be a red card on the pitch, so would have to go to the stand and stay there.
 
RustyRef said:
I don't think is one, but it is common sense really. The sort of things that Mourinho keeps getting into trouble for, they wouldn't get him sent off if he was a player but are deemed to be irresponsible behaviour in the technical area. So if he was a player manager he'd go into the stand but still be able to come on as a sub. Whereas if got into a fight with someone he'd effectively be removed for VC, which would be a red card on the pitch, so would have to go to the stand and stay there.
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His bottle-kicking habit is clearly dissent as a minimum, and can be argued as dangerous if it were to catch a spectator unawares. So if he were a player-manager, how would you deal with that? Yellow card and sent to the stands? That would look extremely odd to anyone watching!

I'd certainly argue that anything that gets a manager sent to the stands is usually worth a dissent caution as a minimum, or perhaps a USB caution for AA if directed at an opposing team official/player. And I'd be surprised if you don't have justification for OFFINABUS in most of those situations! As much as I don't like the guy, there does seem to be a tendency from referees at the moment to send him away immediately, where other managers might get a formal warning.
 
This is an interesting thread, there was a chat about this at the last development group seminar I attended(as a mentor I hasten to add). Removing a manager from the technical area on a park pitch. Is the technical area part of the FOP? How do you define vicinity of the FOP. The barriers? The respect line? There is nothing in law to stop a sent off player or manager stepping over the barrier and remaining there. Even the manager can simply leave the TA, go over the barrier. Complicated even further if they declare themselves the physio too.
 
I wonder if the FA will pick up on Guardiolas sarcastic clapping, all good for ramming them all in the pocket just before xmas. I'm sure they'll be paying a bit more out when this Crewegate stuff surfaces properly!
 
The Crewe fallout should see some people lose their liberty, but I am sure some big fines and promises that they won't do it again will be the outcome.
 
es1 said:
He's a sub so treat it that way! show the red card.
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From what I recall when this was discussed whilst I was a L4, this isn't the case.
If, whilst in the technical area & acting within his role as a manager, he is to be treated as such and therefore can't be shown a red card. If he's out of the technical, therefore by definition not acting as a manager, he gets dismissed as a sub.

As stated above, the grey area is when you dismiss a manager to the stands but he then wishes to bring himself on as a sub.

As I say, this is from memory...but, I think;
IF he was dismissed as a manager for something that would have been a red card offence as a player/sub, he cannot come on as a sub. If he was dismissed for something that wouldn't be a red card, such as Mourinho's bottle kick or when Malky Mackay was dismissed for touching the ball before it had left FOP, he'd be allowed on. However, I'd check for sure with RDO/ref sec etc and see what "official" advice you can get!
 
DanCohen17 said:
From what I recall when this was discussed whilst I was a L4, this isn't the case.
If, whilst in the technical area & acting within his role as a manager, he is to be treated as such and therefore can't be shown a red card. If he's out of the technical, therefore by definition not acting as a manager, he gets dismissed as a sub.

As stated above, the grey area is when you dismiss a manager to the stands but he then wishes to bring himself on as a sub.

As I say, this is from memory...but, I think;
IF he was dismissed as a manager for something that would have been a red card offence as a player/sub, he cannot come on as a sub. If he was dismissed for something that wouldn't be a red card, such as Mourinho's bottle kick or when Malky Mackay was dismissed for touching the ball before it had left FOP, he'd be allowed on. However, I'd check for sure with RDO/ref sec etc and see what "official" advice you can get!
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So as a manager standing in the technical area if he OFFINABUS then he is not shown a red card as he is considered a manager, but he can't come on as a sub either? However, if he stops the ball going out of play and is dismissed to the stands, he can just go no I am coming on as a sub?
 
A Freethinker said:
So as a manager standing in the technical area if he OFFINABUS then he is not shown a red card as he is considered a manager, but he can't come on as a sub either? However, if he stops the ball going out of play and is dismissed to the stands, he can just go no I am coming on as a sub?
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Indeed. You can't show a red card to a normal manager (who isn't named as a sub), so we were told that therefore if he's acting in his role as a manager to treat him as such (i.e., no red card but TA dismissal). However, as it is an offence that would prevent him from taking further part in the game, he loses that right additionally.
As I said, this is just from memory and may not be 100% accurate, but it's what I recall
 
@DanCohen17 did you read the report I put up? The referee dismissed the manager/sub for offinabus, whilst in the technical area via a red card. The referee maintained he was a sub and dismissed as such, however, the manager appealed it and went on to play in a subsequent game as he claimed he was dismissed as a manager not a sub, hence a whole uproar in local football. Totally unfair and the court of arbitration agreed with him. problem is now player/managers can now say what they like and claim nope I was the other and don't have to serve a ban! Total farce.
 
A Freethinker said:
@DanCohen17 did you read the report I put up? The referee dismissed the manager/sub for offinabus, whilst in the technical area via a red card. The referee maintained he was a sub and dismissed as such, however, the manager appealed it and went on to play in a subsequent game as he claimed he was dismissed as a manager not a sub, hence a whole uproar in local football. Totally unfair and the court of arbitration agreed with him. problem is now player/managers can now say what they like and claim nope I was the other and don't have to serve a ban! Total farce.
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Did you read the report? That's absolutely not what it said. The report was from an arbitrator (not a court of arbitration) and dealt mainly with an appeal by Glentoran against a decision by the IFA that said Glentoran had no standing to challenge the decision of an IFA Appeals Committee. This Appeals Committee had in fact ruled that the Glenavon player/manager should have been dismissed as a player and was therefore ineligible to play against Glentoran. However, they still decided Glentoran were not entitled to be awarded the game by default because Glenavon had fielded their player/manager in good faith, having been informed (albeit incorrectly) by an IFA Disciplinary sub-committee that he was eligible to play.

Here is what the IFA Appeals Committee said as regards the player/manager's status:
Mr Hamilton’s name appeared on the match card as a substitute for the match against Linfield. In accordance with Article 2.1 [...] he should have been treated as a player for all purposes including suspension. Accordingly, the referee was entirely correct to show a red card to Mr Hamilton which indicated that he was sending him off as a player and not as an official. The Appeals Board members were unanimously satisfied that the referee made the correct decision regarding Mr Hamilton.
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The arbitrator also agreed with the Appeals Committee that the Disciplinary sub-committee had been wrong to treat him as a manager and not suspend him, stating as follows:
Lying at the root of this dispute is the incorrect decision communicated by or on behalf of the IFA Disciplinary Committee to Glenavon FC that Mr Hamilton was eligible to play in his club’s fixture against the Applicant.
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So just to be clear, the only group that said the player/manager was entitled to claim he was dismissed as a manager was the original Disciplinary sub-committee. This judgement was overturned by the subsequent IFA Appeals Committee and upheld by the independent Arbitrator who agreed he should have been dismissed as a player.
 
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