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Junior/Youth Goalkeeper dancing with the ball at his feet!

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@Kent Ref I regularly get 2-3 cautions a game in my Navy Fixtures... The majority are usually for dissent. You would think that the training would kick in, unfortunately not in quite a few cases. I've not had one military fixture yet where I haven't pulled a yellow out. Thankfully, no reds at the moment.

If he does it again, that's where you start going down the formal route. Go ovrvto the player and have a chat when the ball goes out, bring in the skipper of you feel it's necessary.

The kid is just taking the piss; he's being a kid. That's it. What if he kept the ball at his feet and then picked it up when the player approached? Would you caution that? A few step-overs, it's just a bit of ****iness and arrogance. Next time, the attacker will smash the keeper... that will be his lesson learnt.

It's the general opinion of most of us that the sanction you imposed was harsh. Accept that, but try and understand why we all think that way.
If the player "smashes the keeper" we're looking at a red card. Maybe the first yellow would stop the red? Are you saying if you saw this happen you would take no action (the keeper getting smashed)? If that did happen then you would be partly to blame for doing nothing first time. Have i misunderstood you here?

As i have said all along if the keeper just picked the ball up when he wanted to without the dancing and the comment there's no offence to worry about.

I left the Navy just over ten years ago so maybe the attitude has changed.

You've said "the kid is taking the piss" but you feel this is not an offence. What does taking the piss mean in modern terms because as an older ref with over 20 years experience i would say this type of behaviour unacceptable.

It would be useful for people on here to give examples of what a lack of respect for the game constitutes. Then maybe i can see what i am misunderstanding here.
 
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Then you and i have a different view of what shows a lack of respect for the game.

Out of interest, in your opinion, what scenarios are a display of a lack of respect for the game? Once you give me some examples i think we can see that we have a total difference of opinion.

What about a player from the team winning shouting "can we play you every week"?

Remember this is youth football not adults.

I find it very difficult to accept any of these jibes you quote as disrespectful to the game, to their opponents perhaps, but then that's not quite the same thing.
All that you have so far quoted are, to me, just an attempt at humour and even if it were directed at me or my team, it would make me smile.
I can, hand on heart, state that I have never had an occasion where I think the game has been shown a lack of respect, as soon as I identify one I'll let you know.
 
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I disagree because every game is different. You can go game after game where no cautions are needed, and then you get a game where one or two are handed out... then another few games go by with no need for cautions... yet by the end you say you're too soft? No, it means that the teams you've officiated have been well behaved and you have controlled the games well. Give the teams and yourself some credit if you have a low tally. Don't put it down to being too soft. If you can avoid cautions, avoid them. They have no effect apron us as referees but could sink clubs!
 
If the player "smashes the keeper" we're looking at a red card. Maybe the first yellow would stop the red? Are you saying if you saw this happen you would take no action (the keeper getting smashed)? If that did happen then you would be partly to blame for doing nothing first time. Have i misunderstood you here?

As i have said all along if the keeper just picked the ball up when he wanted to without the dancing and the comment there's no offence to worry about.

I left the Navy just over ten years ago so maybe the attitude has changed.

You've said "the kid is taking the piss" but you feel this is not an offence. What does taking the piss mean in modern terms because as an older ref with over 20 years experience i would say this type of behaviour unacceptable.

It would be useful for people on here to give examples of what a lack of respect for the game constitutes. Then maybe i can see what i am misunderstanding here.
Yeah, you've misinterpreted my text. obviously if a player gets "smashed", the outcome should be appropriate in law, as you seem fit.

He's taking the piss, but is that an offence? How many times do you see "no-looks", clever little flicks etc. All of which are means of piss-taking.

We'll agree to disagree here I think :)

Apologies moderators for the double post...
 
Yeah, you've misinterpreted my text. obviously if a player gets "smashed", the outcome should be appropriate in law, as you seem fit.

He's taking the piss, but is that an offence? How many times do you see "no-looks", clever little flicks etc. All of which are means of piss-taking.

We'll agree to disagree here I think :)

Apologies moderators for the double post...
What exactly did you mean by the keeper getting smashed? Are there two ways to interpret that?

I thought you meant let the keeper get taken out or "smashed" the second time as a lesson to him and do nothing about the attacker committing SFP as the keeper deserved to be taught a lesson.
 
@Kent Ref I'm a bit busy at the moment, I'll respond in detail in the morning as I'm unable to come back on here tonight
 
I see the keepers 'dancing' in exactly the same light as the call of 'nuts' when a nutmeg is pulled off. It is a case of monitoring the heat of the game for a while to discourage any retribution, but it is certainly not a booking in isolation.

If the striker had been getting dogs abuse throughout the game I would have a different view and would start the step up process, perhaps even having a word with the manager. After all youth football is supposed to be played in a safe environment.

I often find at this level the lads are mates off the field anyway and it's just banter.
 
@Kent Ref apologies for not answering your question last night... When I say "smash the keeper".... What I've found (as a player) is if you are "mugged off" like this, you want to seek a bit of payback. So, if the keeper has the ball at his feet, does his dance and says what he does, next time instead of running towards the keeper, the player may slide in to the keeper, probably hitting him on his way through. That is what I meant by the term "smash". Particularly in open age, a yellow card would be worthwhile for the attacker if it meant getting your own back. After taking a hit, the keeper won't be in a hurry to do that again.

As a referee, you'd have to be weary of that occurring because 9 times out of 10, particularly in OA football, a player who has been slightly humiliated will seek some form of revenge. You cautioning the keeper won't change that. You'll just have to be weary of it.

Taking the piss isn't an offence. It's not gentlemanly, but it's not contravening the good-book. We can't just make up additional sanctions for law 12. I can see why you would thing it is USB, but I personally don't think this falls into that catergory.

I'm happy to answer any questions but I feel that this may be a topic where we just end up going around in circles. The general consensus is that it was a harsh booking. It is certainly a situation which should have been managed instead of going straight in with a caution.

Referee head off. Player, manager, FA Respect and Behaviour committee member and League committee member head on. Whilst I understand why you would caution here (at the end of the day, it is your interpretation of USB), you have to look at the bigger picture. If a player deserves a caution, caution him/her. If a player deserves a red card or misconduct, do it. But don't do it just for the sake of it. In Cornwall, we are losing teams left right and centre and whether we like it or not, we also play a part in the success of a club. After pitch expenses, in many cases the referee fees are the next biggest expenditure at any club. They don't just pay our fees, they also contribute towards the CFA Appointments Officers piggy bank. Each team has to pay a fee to their CFA, as do the league's. this amounts to thousands of pounds. The teams deserve to be treated accordingly. An example of how cash-strapped a club is... My first game of this season I officiated two teams, both of which contained friends of mine (I know people at most clubs down here). Midway through the second half, a friend of mine put in a two footed challenge on another. After I allowed the advantage (to which they scored), I sent the player (my friend) off. I knew their club was struggling behind the scenes but it was my duty to register the sending off, which I did. That was the end of that club; they are still Sine-die'd now because they weren't able to afford the fee. My point being, one card can make a big difference. At grassroots, if you can manage offences, please do! That said, if the act of a player warrants disciplinary measures, it is our duty to carry them out.

Football is losing participants left right and centre at an alarming rate. It is down to all of us from the spectators, to the players, management teams, club committees, officials, league members, the CFA's and the FA to try and do our bit to save it.
 
I understand your point about finance but i have never made a decision based on what a club / player might be fined. I fear for the local game but when i look at the millions the Fa has but does not spend i feel that's the problem.

If you are going to caution a player for "retribution" then you have to caution a keeper for the first act overwise you are being unfair.

I know i am strict but in my world it's easier to be consistent in any one game or you feel bad about it afterwards.

Are you at Culdrose/Seahawk? I was there in 1992 - loved it.
 
All I'm saying is that their is a bigger picture and an underlying problem... So, if cautions can be avoided, avoid them. Manage it.

That's the thing, the keeper has done nothing wrong in law. So how can you punish someone for something that isn't punishable? Again, that's just my opinion on this situation. My interpretation on what constitutes USB is a little bit different to yours in this situation. I'm also strict, particularly at work but I like to be firm but fair where i can :)

I am indeed, I'm on one of the helicopter squadrons down here :) I've only been in for 8 years but lived down here for 20 years (in May). I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. It's good to see another armed forces member on here :)
 
If you are going to caution a player for "retribution" then you have to caution a keeper for the first act overwise you are being unfair.

I 1992 - loved it.

You can't make up fro players own stupidity. Players will seek "retribution" if you dont give a foul that they think should have gone their way. I am not taking responsibilities for the players own stupidity.
 
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If you are going to caution a player for "retribution" then you have to caution a keeper for the first act overwise you are being unfair.

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that doesn't make sense. An act doesn't become cautionable simply because somebody else committed a cautionable act in response - you're letting the opponent dictate how you referee there
 
As a referee you want to be fair. I think that the keeper is worth a caution - some disagree, but once that card is issued you have to be fair.

If the keeper does not get a caution for what they have done is it fair to caution a player for retribution (as long as it's a low level of retribution not a SFP / VC level)? This would be a lack of consistency.

I would still be interested in other views on "shows a lack of respect for the game". What constitutes this?
 
As a referee you want to be fair. I think that the keeper is worth a caution - some disagree, but once that card is issued you have to be fair.

If the keeper does not get a caution for what they have done is it fair to caution a player for retribution (as long as it's a low level of retribution not a SFP / VC level)? This would be a lack of consistency.

I would still be interested in other views on "shows a lack of respect for the game". What constitutes this?

yes if the "retribution" deserves it yes.
As to examples you seek see this thread

http://www.refchat.co.uk/threads/selfie.9002/
 
If the keeper does not get a caution for what they have done is it fair to caution a player for retribution (as long as it's a low level of retribution not a SFP / VC level)? This would be a lack of consistency.
Consistency would be treating the identical incidents by 2 players the same. Here we have 2 completely different incidents, so consistency isn't an issue.

So what you're saying is that if a striker wants a keeper to get booked, all he has to do is push the keeper if that keeper says anything or so much as smirks at him?
 
If an attacker "pushes" a keeper he's getting at least a caution.
That's not the point at issue. What you're being asked is whether the keeper deserves a booking for smirking at the forward, simply because the forward subsequently committed a bookable offence.
 
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