A&H

New ref couple of question's...

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TopCat said:
Interesting debate, it being a Friendly was definitely a factor I must admit. I think as James just said there's a stage before the cards which I didn't do with the gobby player, ie I wish I had turned round and said look I'm happy to talk to players, ver right to appeal but im not going to give you a running commentary, you are beginning to test my patience, your on the verge of dissent calm it down or something to that effect. If that didn't work then go to cards. Tbh I didn't feel great after the game as I did feel under- mined, that is just as much my fault as his which on this occasion I put down to inexperience
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My pre-match to the 2 mens sides I was doing on Saturday included a warning about questioning every decision. I told them I'd be dealing with it if it got to the same level as the match I did with one of the sides a fortnight before. (Constant non-stop whinging about every single thing. Due in part to my inexperience in dealing with this sort of team before.)

I said the occasional shout is fine just not every single time. The players were great and even pointed out the would be main offender. (I already knew which ones were going to give me the most grief.)

It went really well. General moaning was way down. I heard at least two blokes appeal and then say 'sorry ref' which wasn't the actual intent but I wasn't complaining.
 
The Referee Store
Hi all I am on my basic referee course next month , been filling in for a few pre season friendlys and wow a bit of a eye opener .
Received a lot of stick in my 1st match and got called a cheat n #$@#@# $@## , bottled it and no cards given .
Following week decided to take no #### and totally different game , still no cards but sternly warned them .
 
WelshRef01 said:
Last thing I would do is hand out cards in a friendly. The managers saved you a job by subbing them himself - but if it was to ever happen again in a friendly, ask the manager to sub them. I usually say in a friendly to the managers/captains yellow, I'll tell them or red (somewhee where I don't want them on the pitch, not for DOGSO etc) I will ask the manager to sub them so they can still play with the 10 men.

As for the gobby player - it happens. Sounds like you did the right thing by engaging in banter and explaining decisions, this will reduce the amount of any dissent. Maybe just a quick word with the captain to tell him to keep his mouth shut if he is getting overly abusive/annoying.
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WelshRef01 said:
I've had 7 pre-season friendlies. Not one of them has been friendly and would say in a competitive game there would've been a red card in more or less every single one of them.

Were any cards shown? No, apart from a game I was watching yesterday where the ref shown a yellow (was rightly a yellow don't get me wrong) but it caused complaints. The referees man-managed these games well - cards aren't needed in friendlies unless things really are getting bad.
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That is an utterly disgraceful state of affairs.

Failing to apply the LOTG correctly because of the perceived status of the game is a shockingly bad display of weak and negligent refereeing, especially where it involves red card offences. To an extent you may be able to manage out cautions a little more in a pre-season game, but to manage out dismissals is an utter capitulation.

Only yesterday I was stood watching a referee "manage" out an incident of head to head contact in a pre-season game........and only yesterday was I then sending an email to his CFA explaining my disappointment at what I witnessed.
 
I was at Bramall Lane yesterday with 2 red cards, I was 90 yards away and saw 2 of the three VC incidents... a rabbit punch, a grab of a neck / throat and a headbutt (missed that)... around me on the Kop the air was turned blue with anti-referee stuff. 'You don't know what you are doing' and all that, The ref went over to the lino and i knew what was coming, Last night a large percentage were posting on FB that two yellows was enough and the game wasn't spoiled and all that crap.... TBF ref was pretty decent, did his job correctly, a few blokes behind me now ask me questions during the game. In a friendly you can adopt a low key attitude but when it comes to VC you should show no remorse....
 
Padfoot said:
That is an utterly disgraceful state of affairs.

Failing to apply the LOTG correctly because of the perceived status of the game is a shockingly bad display of weak and negligent refereeing, especially where it involves red card offences. To an extent you may be able to manage out cautions a little more in a pre-season game, but to manage out dismissals is an utter capitulation.

Only yesterday I was stood watching a referee "manage" out an incident of head to head contact in a pre-season game........and only yesterday was I then sending an email to his CFA explaining my disappointment at what I witnessed.
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Have you ever thought about approaching things in a constructive manner?!? Seriously, your pathetic posts are becoming tiring. If you can't say anything decent to help the guys and girls who come on here to ask for advice and feedback, keep it to yourself!

Most of the time, you are right in what you say Padders but your attitude and your approach when offering your opinion is nothing short of controversial and unprofessional. It gets tedious after a while.
 
DB said:
Have you ever thought about approaching things in a constructive manner?!? Seriously, your pathetic posts are becoming tiring. If you can't say anything decent to help the guys and girls who come on here to ask for advice and feedback, keep it to yourself!

Most of the time, you are right in what you say Padders but your attitude and your approach when offering your opinion is nothing short of controversial and unprofessional. It gets tedious after a while.
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I think thats harsh on this light sabre warrior. Am sure we have all been in the situation where you are doing something correctly however you cop the grief for it because last weeks referee did something differently. Maybe had last weeks also done it properly, everryones life would be more straightforward.
 
It's just allllll the time. never anything constructive which is what many seek when they come on here. Many would expect criticism, but they'd expect it in the right manner from the more experienced referees.

There's a way to approach things and there's a way to speak to people and manage people... this isn't the right approach most of the time.
 
DB said:
Have you ever thought about approaching things in a constructive manner?!? Seriously, your pathetic posts are becoming tiring. If you can't say anything decent to help the guys and girls who come on here to ask for advice and feedback, keep it to yourself!

Most of the time, you are right in what you say Padders but your attitude and your approach when offering your opinion is nothing short of controversial and unprofessional. It gets tedious after a while.
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So what exactly did padders say in hist post that was controversial and/or unprofessional?

Welshref wasn't asking for advice on how to handle something, or whether they had made a mistake.

They outright said that the last thing they would do is get their cards out in a friendly, and that over the course of 7 friendlies they reckon there should have been at least 7 red cards.

If we take this as accurate, this isn't a mistake in law, it is their belief that this is how friendlies should be approached (even though they know it's wrong). How can you offer constructive criticism in this case, sometimes you just have to say it how it is, rather than worrying about hurting domes feelings.
 
Zara, I am not talking about one post, I'm talking about the majority.

Look at the first few posts on this thread, constructive advice which actually attempts to educate the referee who asked the question. Not simply state the harsh reality of things. As I said and I reiterate my point, Padders is normally right in what he says. That's never usually up for discussion. It's the way things are said. I see it time and time again on here and it's becoming very tiring. My comment above is as a result of a few posts I've read this morning, not just this one, which is why it may seem harsh.
 
DB said:
Have you ever thought about approaching things in a constructive manner?!? Seriously, your pathetic posts are becoming tiring. If you can't say anything decent to help the guys and girls who come on here to ask for advice and feedback, keep it to yourself!

Most of the time, you are right in what you say Padders but your attitude and your approach when offering your opinion is nothing short of controversial and unprofessional. It gets tedious after a while.
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How do you approach such a blatantly irresponsible approach to refereeing in a "constructive manner"? To do anything less than absolutely condemn that approach is simply to facilitate it.

As has been pointed out....they weren't asking for advice or opinions.....they were stating their hard and fast position on cards and pre-season games.

DB said:
Zara, I am not talking about one post, I'm talking about the majority.

Look at the first few posts on this thread, constructive advice which actually attempts to educate the referee who asked the question. Not simply state the harsh reality of things. As I said and I reiterate my point, Padders is normally right in what he says. That's never usually up for discussion. It's the way things are said. I see it time and time again on here and it's becoming very tiring. My comment above is as a result of a few posts I've read this morning, not just this one, which is why it may seem harsh.
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I haven't responded to the OP because others have adequately covered what needed covering, and I am sure the OP has taken away the relevant learning points.

No, it doesn't "seem" harsh....it is harsh. But nothing less than I have come to expect from you.....you seem to have made it your mission on here, along with a couple of others, to be as disagreeable as possible with anything that I post.
But that's fine.....I'm a big boy, and can handle the scorn.
 
Padders, I don't disagree with much that you say at all, most of the time you are correct in what you say. I disagree with how you go about it! Two completely different things here. Surely you are a big enough boy to understand that?
 
We all have to start somewhere, and the fact is that new referees will make stupid mistakes. They need support and pointing onto the right track, not told that they are disgraceful. I've observed referees when what I really wanted to say / write was along the lines of pick another vocation because refereeing just isn't for you. But I've never said that as to do so would be unprofessional, and rather I've tried to give them advice that will hopefully make them better even though I know deep down they are a lost cause.

Incidentally, I was told on my course to only use cards in friendlies if someone has committed murder, and for anything else to manage it. This was a long time ago, and I fairly quickly realised that was bad advice as leaving someone on who has punched / hurt / committed SFP / etc is sure to cause you more problems than binning him will, but it goes to show that new referees need support.
 
RustyRef said:
We all have to start somewhere, and the fact is that new referees will make stupid mistakes. They need support and pointing onto the right track, not told that they are disgraceful. I've observed referees when what I really wanted to say / write was along the lines of pick another vocation because refereeing just isn't for you. But I've never said that as to do so would be unprofessional, and rather I've tried to give them advice that will hopefully make them better even though I know deep down they are a lost cause.

Incidentally, I was told on my course to only use cards in friendlies if someone has committed murder, and for anything else to manage it. This was a long time ago, and I fairly quickly realised that was bad advice as leaving someone on who has punched / hurt / committed SFP / etc is sure to cause you more problems than binning him will, but it goes to show that new referees need support.
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Unfortunately you seem to have missed the fact that the quotes I posted, and subsequently correctly identified as disgraceful, belong to @WelshRef01, who is apparently a Lvl 3....which is equivalent to a level 5 in English money?

So this wasn't a new referee making a stupid mistake.....it was an experienced referee deliberately choosing not to apply the LOTG correctly. Very very different.

As for being brutally honest with candidates.....why not? Why is there such a sensitivity around peoples egos? If they are truly not cut out to be a referee, who is benefiting by you continuing to perpetuate their misguided ambitions? Certainly not the referee, certainly the players, so who?
If someone has progressed as far as their talent will let them....that's different because you can give advice which will benefit them and help them come to terms with consolidating at their current level.....but an absolute lost cause? Better to be honest and put them out of their misery, because if they are that bad, they won't be enjoying it either. Maybe it's conversation that has to come from their mentor/coach or their RDO, but it shouldn't be avoided.
 
Another game this morning ending in a 3-3 draw , no problems on the pitch at all , just the odd chatterbox who soon found out who was in charge . Gave a penalty and chalked off a goal at the death for a push on the goalkeeper with very little argument from the players and they wernt blatant challenges either .
 
Padfoot said:
Unfortunately you seem to have missed the fact that the quotes I posted, and subsequently correctly identified as disgraceful, belong to @WelshRef01, who is apparently a Lvl 3....which is equivalent to a level 5 in English money?

So this wasn't a new referee making a stupid mistake.....it was an experienced referee deliberately choosing not to apply the LOTG correctly. Very very different.

As for being brutally honest with candidates.....why not? Why is there such a sensitivity around peoples egos? If they are truly not cut out to be a referee, who is benefiting by you continuing to perpetuate their misguided ambitions? Certainly not the referee, certainly the players, so who?
If someone has progressed as far as their talent will let them....that's different because you can give advice which will benefit them and help them come to terms with consolidating at their current level.....but an absolute lost cause? Better to be honest and put them out of their misery, because if they are that bad, they won't be enjoying it either. Maybe it's conversation that has to come from their mentor/coach or their RDO, but it shouldn't be avoided.
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Love it. Excellent. Can I ask what level/experience you are at Padders? Never been one for showing cards in friendlies. I have also performed with some very high standard referees, welsh premier & fifa/ex fifa and not one has advised for giving cards in a friendly. Would much rather listen to them.
 
WelshRef01 said:
Love it. Excellent. Can I ask what level/experience you are at Padders? Never been one for showing cards in friendlies. I have also performed with some very high standard referees, welsh premier & fifa/ex fifa and not one has advised for giving cards in a friendly. Would much rather listen to them.
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Not one has advised sending someone off in a friendly for Violent Conduct? Really?

Level/experience is utterly irrelevant to this discussion.......apart from that in many many years of officiating I have never once walked onto the pitch for a pre-season game with the mindset "Oh this is a friendly, better not show any cards".....preferring to simply referee what is front of me according to the LOTG.

If you wish to carry on being a negligent irresponsible official who is quite happy to ignore their obligations, then that is your prerogative......however, please do not cross the border and bring your lazy habits to our green and pleasant land. If FAW are happy for their officials to be so arrogant and dismissive of the LOTG then probably best they keep them in their jurisdiction.
 
I was on about cards in general, not necessarily violent conduct. Again, depends on the severity - someone I know sent a lad off pre-season for VC and I've not heard a single positive comment.

Funnily enough, I was originally with the FA and was offered a place on the academy not so long ago, but decided to move to Wales!
 
WelshRef01 said:
someone I know sent a lad off pre-season for VC and I've not heard a single positive comment.
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It's a good job we don't referee for the positive feedback from players, managers and spectators... No doubt having walked that player the teams were complaining about how the referee had ruined the game, makes the "friendly" useless as a pre-season warm up blah blah blah. Nobody thinks to blame the player that committed VIOLENT CONDUCT. FC FFS! Sure, there are offences that can be managed, but only those that are ITOOTR. Anything that is clear cut takes the decision making out of the referee's hands. And if teams don't want cards in friendlies, don't ask a qualified ref to do the middle. Get Coach #1 or Spectator #3 to go in the middle with the whistle, and then they'll see how a game can be ruined.
 
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