7-6 or 4W-3W promotion

[OnlyUseMeWhistle]

So it’s that time of year and I’m thinking about promotion!

I’m definitely going for it, a good first full season and in a new area. But I’m torn between 7-6 or 4W-3W.

For context I’ve been doing almost exclusively Women’s and girls football, besides enjoying it more I’ve been playing in the local men’s league (two divisions) so it’s been my only option anyway.

I’m keen to go up the women’s pathway, it just appeals more and as a man who is not the most masculine it avoids a lot of the disrespect that entails in the men’s game.

However, 3W criteria seems much “harder” than 7-6 or even 6-5. I know you can convert from mens to Women’s at any time, so the choice is really whether I push myself and stick with the pathway I want to do OR get an easier promotion under my belt and then push for a tougher one next year?

Note: I’m aware this is more of a question for my RDO but they basically said “it’s up to you” so I’d appreciate any advice on what motivated people for promotions and advice on going “too early” for a promotion.

 

[dylanbailey4444]

I’m trying both 7-6 and 4W-3W this year. Although, I don’t think I’ll get my 3W as I haven’t had enough observations and games in the woman's game.

From my understanding, if you get, let’s say, level 5, you can go into the woman's pathway straight away as a 3W.

 

[Kes]

So it’s that time of year and I’m thinking about promotion!

I’m definitely going for it, a good first full season and in a new area. But I’m torn between 7-6 or 4W-3W.

For context I’ve been doing almost exclusively Women’s and girls football, besides enjoying it more I’ve been playing in the local men’s league (two divisions) so it’s been my only option anyway.

I’m keen to go up the women’s pathway, it just appeals more and as a man who is not the most masculine it avoids a lot of the disrespect that entails in the men’s game.

However, 3W criteria seems much “harder” than 7-6 or even 6-5. I know you can convert from mens to Women’s at any time, so the choice is really whether I push myself and stick with the pathway I want to do OR get an easier promotion under my belt and then push for a tougher one next year?

Note: I’m aware this is more of a question for my RDO but they basically said “it’s up to you” so I’d appreciate any advice on what motivated people for promotions and advice on going “too early” for a promotion.

The "marking" criteria for Women's Football (4W-3W) and Men's Football (5-4) are exactly the same.
Only my opinion, but if you're a L7 with only one full season behind you, then unless you're an exceptional referee, you'll struggle with the 4W-3W Observation requirements, albeit that Women's games are nearly always less challenging.

If it were me (and it's not) then I'd go for the men's pathway up to L5 before attempting to go full female pathway.

 

[Kes]

I’m trying both 7-6 and 4W-3W this year. Although, I don’t think I’ll get my 3W as I haven’t had enough observations and games in the woman's game.

From my understanding, if you get, let’s say, level 5, you can go into the woman's pathway straight away as a 3W.

I'm not 100% sure (although as an Observer myself I should be ) but the above is correct only if you wanted to act as an AR on the Women's game at 3W level.
As explained above, you're not going to be doing middles at 3W level unless you've gone through the appropriate promotion pathway (4W-3W or 5-4) first.

 

[dylanbailey4444]

I'm not 100% sure (although as an Observer myself I should be ) but the above is correct only if you wanted to act as an AR on the Women's game at 3W level.
As explained above, you're not going to be doing middles at 3W level unless you've gone through the appropriate promotion pathway (4W-3W or 5-4) first.

Ah! I didn’t know. I thought you could go to doing middles at 3W! Apologies.

 

[dylanbailey4444]

The "marking" criteria for Women's Football (4W-3W) and Men's Football (5-4) are exactly the same.
Only my opinion, but if you're a L7 with only one full season behind you, then unless you're an exceptional referee, you'll struggle with the 4W-3W Observation requirements, albeit that Women's games are nearly always less challenging.

If it were me (and it's not) then I'd go for the men's pathway up to L5 before attempting to go full female pathway.

I agree with this.
I did terrible on a womens observation earlier this season. But I had a 7-6 observation a few weeks ago and the observer in the mens game said I was one of, if not the best referee he had seen at that level.

But the womens 4W-3W I struggled with a lot and did poor on an observation. I failed to caution 6 players apparently but it was a polite game. I wasn’t wide enough. I didn’t use the stepped approach but should also have cautioned a player on her second careless foul (I thought that contradicted itself) I just wasn’t up to standard and got 67.6!

 

[Kes]

I agree with this.
I did terrible on a womens observation earlier this season. But I had a 7-6 observation a few weeks ago and the observer in the mens game said I was one of, if not the best referee he had seen at that level.

But the womens 4W-3W I struggled with a lot and did poor on an observation. I failed to caution 6 players apparently but it was a polite game. I wasn’t wide enough. I didn’t use the stepped approach but should also have cautioned a player on her second careless foul (I thought that contradicted itself) I just wasn’t up to standard and got 67.6!

Very honest of you there Dylan.

But yes, you're effectively comparing a L7-6 performance with a L5-4 one and the requirements of each are pretty much worlds apart.

The jump from L5 to L4 (Supply League) referee is one of the biggest you make as referee and so the Observation criteria are far less "forgiving" for want of a better word. Rightly so too.

 

[Kes]

but should also have cautioned a player on her second careless foul (I thought that contradicted itself)

Have to say, that sounds a bit awry to be honest. (Unless you've got that wrong and your observer considered it either a reckless challenge or USB?).

Persistent infringement (PI) can be cautioned for against a player for even their first foul if it involves say, the same opponent being fouled numerous times by that team, but normally it's an individual player thing that results in a card for PI and normally not before their 3rd or even 4th (careless) free kick against them.

 

[dylanbailey4444]

Have to say, that sounds a bit awry to be honest. (Unless you've got that wrong and your observer considered it either a reckless challenge or USB?).

Persistent infringement (PI) can be cautioned for against a player for even their first foul if it involves say, the same opponent being fouled numerous times by that team, but normally it's an individual player thing that results in a card for PI and normally not before their 3rd or even 4th (careless) free kick against them.

That’s what I thought. It sounded like in the observation he contradicted himself a bit by saying I should have taken the stepped approach throughout the game (even though it was a very pleasant game to referee and there wasn’t much in it) and then also said I should have cautioned this specific player after her second careless foul.

That’s what I’m sure it said in the observation.

 

[dylanbailey4444]

Very honest of you there Dylan.

But yes, you're effectively comparing a L7-6 performance with a L5-4 one and the requirements of each are pretty much worlds apart.

The jump from L5 to L4 (Supply League) referee is one of the biggest you make as referee and so the Observation criteria are far less "forgiving" for want of a better word. Rightly so too.

It’s a huge difference! And you can see when the reports come back. If I compared my 4W-3W to 7-6 observation reports, they are quite different.

 

[stedaley]

So it’s that time of year and I’m thinking about promotion!

I’m definitely going for it, a good first full season and in a new area. But I’m torn between 7-6 or 4W-3W.

For context I’ve been doing almost exclusively Women’s and girls football, besides enjoying it more I’ve been playing in the local men’s league (two divisions) so it’s been my only option anyway.

I’m keen to go up the women’s pathway, it just appeals more and as a man who is not the most masculine it avoids a lot of the disrespect that entails in the men’s game.

However, 3W criteria seems much “harder” than 7-6 or even 6-5. I know you can convert from mens to Women’s at any time, so the choice is really whether I push myself and stick with the pathway I want to do OR get an easier promotion under my belt and then push for a tougher one next year?

Note: I’m aware this is more of a question for my RDO but they basically said “it’s up to you” so I’d appreciate any advice on what motivated people for promotions and advice on going “too early” for a promotion.

I’ve just done 6-5 (almost same as 7-6) and 4w-3w at the same time, they are very very different beasts but my advice would be to go for it and do both.

By going for both you’ll get more observations and more feedback, which will give you constructive feedback to work on and an ability to improve if you can put it into practice. Even if they’re assessed in a different way you’ll get things to work on that will help.

If you don’t go for it, feedback opportunities will be limited and even if you fail this time round, you’ll be better prepared for next time round.

Assuming you want to progress up the womens game pathway then go for it, I also prioritise the womens game as my primary refereeing but the 7-6 and 6-5 have helped me in that too and you can use female games in that scheme.

Happy to answer any other questions you might have if you want, either here or via direct message etc.

Good luck,

Ste

 

[JamesL]

Even if they’re assessed in a different way you’ll get things to work on that will help.

It's not that they are assessed in a different way, more that the skills required are of a higher level.

Going 7-6 in the Men's game is very different to going 5-4 or in this case 4w-3w. You need to display a greater level of skills to demonstrate the capability to referee a game at those levels.

 

[stedaley]

It's not that they are assessed in a different way, more that the skills required are of a higher level.

Going 7-6 in the Men's game is very different to going 5-4 or in this case 4w-3w. You need to display a greater level of skills to demonstrate the capability to referee a game at those levels.

You are right James, I don’t think I worded my response particularly well in this part and you are totally correct around what skills you need to display at that level and rightly so they should be different.

What I meant by assessed in a different way was more around the criteria used, feedback forms and the scoring system etc but as a relatively new referee joining the promotion schemes each year has been invaluable for getting feedback and learning and becoming a better referee and as such I’d recommend it to anyone who wants to be better as otherwise development opportunities are otherwise very limited in their availability.

Ste

 

[RustyRef]

W4 to W3 is an observation, where the observer has to back up any competency where 7.5 or above is awarded with timed evidence, likewise for any 6.5 or below mark. 7 to 6 and 6 to 5 are match day coach reports, where no such requirements exist, and there isn't really an overall mark given out at all.

Behaviours from the observers / coaches will also likely be different. I would never give advice at half time as an observer, but I can and do as a coach as that is encouraged.

 

[Whinyates]

Ah! I didn’t know. I thought you could go to doing middles at 3W! Apologies.

3w is middles in the WNL. 4w is AR on WNL but I’m not sure if you need to be on the promotion pathway to be considered. I’ve done 7-6/4w-3w this season, which is my first, and the MDC seemed madness compared to observations. If I new better at the beginning of the season I would’ve only picked one pathway tbh

 

[OnlyUseMeWhistle]

Thank you all! Very helpful and I’ll consider carefully which one would be best for me. Doing both, if mainly for the different feedback opportunities, is appealing. Long term I think I’d like to commit to the women’s pathway but I’ve not had much formal development since qualifying (thanks RDOs ) so want to get on with it