A&H

Binning a player manager

BES

Member
i know this has been posted before but this is an area i get so confused on.

Had a gobby person on the bench on the weekend. I said to myself one more stupid comment and I am binning him. He had already had a public warning.

It then struck me he was named as player and manager.

I didn't end up sending him from the technical area but if I had what capacity should I have made him walk?

And further more what can he continue to do in the capacity he has not been binned?

Any advice would be helpful.
 
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You need to be clear on what he is first of all.
Is he named on the team sheet as a player or, a substitute or, a substituted player? If yes, you can dismiss him under the OFFINABUS category. You may show a red card.
If no, then you have to know if he's a team official. That should also be on the team sheet. In that case you can tell him to leave the vicinity of the FOP and report it as misconduct. You don't show a red card.
If he's not a team official, what the hell is he doing in the technical area? Tell him to leave and write a misconduct report. Probably need to write a report for the league, too.
The only fly in the ointment is if somehow, this bloke is the named physio but that's for another day.
Think I have covered it but could be corrected.
 
The other potential hurdle is if he does something that is enough of a technical offence to get him sent from the technical area, but not enough that you would dismiss a player or sub for that action. Kicking a water bottle is a good high-profile example - it got Mourinho sent to the stands recently, but you'd struggle to justify a red card if a player did it.
 
I had this on Sunday and yes, it's confusing. The person concerned was clearly the assistant manager and was a named substitute but wasn't wearing any kit or boots and was obviously not planning to play. He took issue with a decision (bizarrely a free kick to his own team) and ended up shouting to me "it's all about you isn't it". I just said "that'll do thank you" and his reply was a very loud "f*** off!". I blew the whistle and began to approach him and he shouted "I suppose you're going to send me to the changing rooms, as if I give a f***!" . I just said "yes, that's exactly what I'll do, please leave". He then pointed his finger and shouted "you f***ing p***k" and fortunately left. The manager gave me his name when asked and I sent it in as a misconduct on Whole Game System.
 
@PP62 - so what if they wanted to bring him on as a sub?

Still confused.com??! :(
It doesn't matter, what we are trying to explain is whether you can show him a red card or not. Either way he is dismissed off the FOP and cannot be part of any further action. The difference is in the technicality of the procedure and what you include in your report afterwards. Named player/sub or subbed player red card and off the FOP for what I'm guessing is OFFINABUS in your case. Coach/manager/assistant manager any staff member except for a physio dismissal off the FOP w/out any cards and included as a misconduct report. Physio you can't dismiss them off the FOP but a very harsh and public bollocking with a stern warning to head coach to manage his staff and included it as an extraordinary event!

I guess that's about it, unless Brian, Lincs or paddy say I've missed sth out?! Happy to be corrected
 
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@PP62 - so what if they wanted to bring him on as a sub?

Still confused.com??! :(

Too late for him to come on as sub as I sent him away. They could have asked but I wouldn't have let him on.

I didn't really help you there did I?
 
Physio you can't dismiss them off the FOP but a very harsh and public bollocking with a stern warning to head coach to manage his staff and included it as an extraordinary event!

It can be done. I once dismissed a Physio on a supply league game. Senior assistant (ex level 3) said I couldn't dismiss the Physio but I said it was too late, he's not standing there shouting at me like that, he's going. He went.

On a park pitch be aware that a bucket and sponge doesn't make someone a Physio.
 
It can be done. I once dismissed a Physio on a supply league game. Senior assistant (ex level 3) said I couldn't dismiss the Physio but I said it was too late, he's not standing there shouting at me like that, he's going. He went.

On a park pitch be aware that a bucket and sponge doesn't make someone a Physio.
Did teh match continue? I'm fairly sure you can dismiss a physio. But you need to be aware that when doing so that if the team can't nominate someone else suitable, the match has to be abandoned, hence why it's a bigger deal than just dismissing a manager.

As you allude to, the requirements for being a physio require some kind of qualification at supply level....no comment on grassroots!
 
If he is a player and a manager (or a sub and a manager), and he does something you can show a card for - then deal with it from that angle. Look at the sub/player part first. Book him, send him, and he can't participate in the match in either fashion.

Because if you send them off as a manager (ie without cards), then there's a legitimate argument over whether they can participate as a sub/player. Send them off as a sub/player, and it's clear they can't participate as either.

It would be very, very unlikely for them to do something as a manager that you couldn't caution for if it was a sub doing it. Possible, but extremely unlikely.
 
If he is a player and a manager (or a sub and a manager), and he does something you can show a card for - then deal with it from that angle. Look at the sub/player part first. Book him, send him, and he can't participate in the match in either fashion.

Because if you send them off as a manager (ie without cards), then there's a legitimate argument over whether they can participate as a sub/player. Send them off as a sub/player, and it's clear they can't participate as either.

It would be very, very unlikely for them to do something as a manager that you couldn't caution for if it was a sub doing it. Possible, but extremely unlikely.
The only two I could think of were the water bottle thing (which feels a touch harsh, but is now a well known precedent) and something petty like leaving the technical area and refusing to go back in - but without entering the FOP as that would be cautionable! And you could argue that as dissent by action I suppose.

Can't think of anything else that doesn't fit under the caution/SO criteria though.
 
Even the water bottle thing you could book them for dissent. Only thing I can think of is interference from a manager that may only constitute a yellow card for a sub.

Even a sub leaving the tech area constantly could be booked....although you do have the scenario where a sub warming up may provide instructions from the sideline which is breaching the manager's laws....
 
It can be done. I once dismissed a Physio on a supply league game. Senior assistant (ex level 3) said I couldn't dismiss the Physio but I said it was too late, he's not standing there shouting at me like that, he's going. He went.

On a park pitch be aware that a bucket and sponge doesn't make someone a Physio.
You can't dismiss a physio. They are the one person from the team's personnel you can expel.
This is why the paperwork such as team sheets can be so important to you. There's so much important information on there to help you with your job should these situations arise. The team sheet will name the players, the substitutes (and substituted players) and provide information on who is a manager/coach, an assistant and the physio.
I'd have thought at supply league level, you'd have a team sheet and these people suitably named and identified. If I was said physio and named on the team sheet and you'd dismissed me, I'd be appealing the misconduct.
I agree that a bucket and sponge doesn't make someone a physio but if he/she is named as one, you treat them accordingly.
 
You can't dismiss a physio. They are the one person from the team's personnel you can expel.
This is why the paperwork such as team sheets can be so important to you. There's so much important information on there to help you with your job should these situations arise. The team sheet will name the players, the substitutes (and substituted players) and provide information on who is a manager/coach, an assistant and the physio.
I'd have thought at supply league level, you'd have a team sheet and these people suitably named and identified. If I was said physio and named on the team sheet and you'd dismissed me, I'd be appealing the misconduct.
I agree that a bucket and sponge doesn't make someone a physio but if he/she is named as one, you treat them accordingly.
I disagree. A referee should have a right to send anyone away from the pitch - the physio doesn't get to stand there an hurl abuse just because he has a first aid qualification. His special position might get him a warning and a misconduct report where you would normally send a manager or coach away, but if that doesn't stop him, you don't have to put up with it.

In practice, at Supply level and above, the team has to have a named and qualified physio. If the physio gets himself sent off, the manager has to nominate someone else qualified. If he can't do that, logically the match has to be abandoned. As the referee, you might be expected to make the consequences of his actions clear to the physio and give him another chance before dismissing him, but that doesn't make him immune from those consequences.
 
I think Gillingham had a manager sent from the technical area (Andy Hessentyler, I think), who was a named sub, and then bought himself on as a sub.
 
I was always under the illusion that it is 'manager/coach first, player second' ... so if he is stupid enough to get sent away as a manager, then he also gives up his role as an 'active sub' so therefore cannot come on in the game.

at least, unless I am corrected, I wouldn't let him on! he has to come into the technical area to be a sub, the area which I have just sent him from ;)
 
See Gary Hamilton player/manager dismissal, dismissed via a red card as named sub took it to IFA committee who allowed him to play in the next game...very dodgy area and you need to be quite specific as to why you are dismissing and under what role!
 
I disagree. A referee should have a right to send anyone away from the pitch - the physio doesn't get to stand there an hurl abuse just because he has a first aid qualification. His special position might get him a warning and a misconduct report where you would normally send a manager or coach away, but if that doesn't stop him, you don't have to put up with it.

In practice, at Supply level and above, the team has to have a named and qualified physio. If the physio gets himself sent off, the manager has to nominate someone else qualified. If he can't do that, logically the match has to be abandoned. As the referee, you might be expected to make the consequences of his actions clear to the physio and give him another chance before dismissing him, but that doesn't make him immune from those consequences.

There are two physio's in those dugouts. Whats to stop you asking the Home team Physio if he would mind treating the away team players if they need treatment? In which case, goodbye Mr Physio, go and make yourself a brew.
 
There are two physio's in those dugouts. Whats to stop you asking the Home team Physio if he would mind treating the away team players if they need treatment? In which case, goodbye Mr Physio, go and make yourself a brew.
The other team physio could be the nominated person I guess, but are they obliged to do so?
 
You can't dismiss a physio. They are the one person from the team's personnel you can expel.
This is why the paperwork such as team sheets can be so important to you. There's so much important information on there to help you with your job should these situations arise. The team sheet will name the players, the substitutes (and substituted players) and provide information on who is a manager/coach, an assistant and the physio.
I'd have thought at supply league level, you'd have a team sheet and these people suitably named and identified. If I was said physio and named on the team sheet and you'd dismissed me, I'd be appealing the misconduct.
I agree that a bucket and sponge doesn't make someone a physio but if he/she is named as one, you treat them accordingly.

You can and I did.
The team sheets on the 4 supply leagues I refereed on just had spaces for technical area occupants and didn't specifically ask which was the physio. Also, it wasn't always the case that the "physio" actually had a qualification.
If you were the physio named on a team sheet and I dismissed you, make no bones about it, you would go. The misconduct charge would stick because the offence would still have been committed. I might find myself in trouble but it wouldn't get you off the misconduct.
I treat people as I find them. I'm not there to be yelled at, abused, sworn at etc. and no qualification is giving someone the right to do so.
 
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