PP62
Well-Known Member
Yes, we carried on and finished the game.
Binning a player manager
- Thread starter BES
- Start date
Yes, we carried on and finished the game.
Cheshire Ref
RefChat Addict
No, they would not be obliged to, that's why you ask.
And if they say no and the first team doesn't have anyone else?
Yampy
RefChat Addict
Sounds like you've created a problem for yourself if that happens.
So you should just put up with the abuse? I've suggested that abandonment is the next logical step in the process, you seem to be going round the houses to suggest otherwise?
Yampy
RefChat Addict
I was pointing out the situation that if you dismiss the physio and the other team's physio refuses to cover, you have a problem if a player requires treatment from the dismissed physio. What do you do? Go and ask the dismissed physio to come back and treat his player?
If the physio gives you abuse, warn him over his conduct and tell him he will be reported for misconduct. If he continues, then it's another misconduct, if he still continues then abandon. If two warnings and two misconduct reports don't stop him and the other team officials can't control him, you've enough evidence to support an abandonment.
Furthermore, if you dismiss a physio and the other physio refuses to treat the opposition players, shouldn't you abandon there and then? What's your provision to treat injured players in that situation?
I've simply said in this thread that you can't dismiss the physio and explained why I believe you shouldn't. Even you have stated earlier in the thread that you don't think you can dismiss the physio.
If the physio gives you abuse, warn him over his conduct and tell him he will be reported for misconduct. If he continues, then it's another misconduct, if he still continues then abandon. If two warnings and two misconduct reports don't stop him and the other team officials can't control him, you've enough evidence to support an abandonment.
Furthermore, if you dismiss a physio and the other physio refuses to treat the opposition players, shouldn't you abandon there and then? What's your provision to treat injured players in that situation?
I've simply said in this thread that you can't dismiss the physio and explained why I believe you shouldn't. Even you have stated earlier in the thread that you don't think you can dismiss the physio.
I can perfectly see a situation when you can bin a manager or two, done a few myself, but i'm struggling to remember a situation in all my years when you've miffed off a physio so bad that you feel the need to bin one! I know sh1t happens but it must be as rare a goalie taking his boot off and saving a shot!!
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It really depends what the player manager is going for. If it is for an offence that he would receive a red card for on the pitch then he is shown a red card and punted to the stands. Examples here might be VC, OFFINABUS, etc, and in such cases then clearly he can take no further part in the game as either a manager or player.
Where it becomes more difficult is when it is for a technical offence. As has been said before he kicks a water bottle, or keeps leaving the technical area. Or in a more generic sense he doesn't behave in a responsible manner. So you might be removing a player manager for an offence that wouldn't see him receiving a red card, or indeed any card, if he was on the pitch, and in these cases he could theoretically subsequently come on as a player.
As for the physio debate, be sensible. If you remove a physio you are essentially abandoning the game. Yes, the opposition's physio could agree to do both roles, but what then happens if something goes wrong and a player suffers potentially serious injury. Whilst unlikely, the referee could end up on the wrong end of a legal case. Personally I would just tell them they are being reported, and make it clear that any further comments or actions will be added to the report. If they take heed the problem has gone away, if they don't then the CFA have a mountain of ammunition to fire at the offender.
Where it becomes more difficult is when it is for a technical offence. As has been said before he kicks a water bottle, or keeps leaving the technical area. Or in a more generic sense he doesn't behave in a responsible manner. So you might be removing a player manager for an offence that wouldn't see him receiving a red card, or indeed any card, if he was on the pitch, and in these cases he could theoretically subsequently come on as a player.
As for the physio debate, be sensible. If you remove a physio you are essentially abandoning the game. Yes, the opposition's physio could agree to do both roles, but what then happens if something goes wrong and a player suffers potentially serious injury. Whilst unlikely, the referee could end up on the wrong end of a legal case. Personally I would just tell them they are being reported, and make it clear that any further comments or actions will be added to the report. If they take heed the problem has gone away, if they don't then the CFA have a mountain of ammunition to fire at the offender.
I think you're mixing me up with someone else then - I've said all the way through that you can dismiss physio's, but that this equates to abandonment and therefore it's common sense to give them an "extra life" before sending them away. Someone else suggested getting the other physio involved, but in any kind of competitive match, especially with tempers spiking, I'm not sure I'd want to do that and I'm not sure why the other physio would agree when the alternative is a free win for his team.
I've had a few physios come on to treat a player and take the opportunity to "debate" a decision at the same time. So far, I've managed to convince them to focus on the treatment and leave the decisions to me, but I wouldn't be shocked if one didn't listen to that advice one day. It's not that uncommon for a physio to come on to treat a player when you don't believe they've been fouled, or you haven't punished the other player harshly enough for the physio's liking. This is a definite potential situation.
I've always been told that you can't send a Physio away, and the problem is that they know that and can get away with murder.
The problem with using the other teams Physio is down to medical history etc of their own players. If something were to happen, the opposition physio may not be aware of allergies, medical conditions (asthma etc)....
That's why it's suggested that you go to the player to check he needs help, call the physio on and then move away from the immediate area. If you stay too close then you may hear stuff you then have to deal with. Keeping out of his way makes it more likely he'll just get on with his job. If he then makes comments at sufficient volume for you to hear then others will also hear and any action is not a surprise.
I believe there were concerns that some managers would also be named on the team-sheet as the physio so that when they misbehaved they could not be dismissed. I'm not sure it actually happened though, although I know characters who I would expect to do this.
The other issue about using the opposition physio to do both teams is, what happens if there's a clash of heads and two players are down? If you have to bin a proper physio - not just someone holding a bucket - the safest thing is to abandon. As Rusty says, just report the issues and let the CFA deal with it. If you are going to bin the manager and he says you can't because he's the physio, then the next time he starts, report the physio!
Paul March
Well-Known Member
There is a particular manager in a Combined Counties club that names himself as the physio under the misapprehension that he is untouchable. Had great joy in correcting his assertions.
Though agree it is not wise to pick a fight with one, better to manage them and hope they heed warnings. There's a whole sh"t storm about games proceeding without medical support etc, especially if you as a ref have created that position( yes I accept that it would be their actions that led to it, but if a player is seriously injured and medical assistance is delayed because you dismissed a physio for a bit of mouth....)
Though agree it is not wise to pick a fight with one, better to manage them and hope they heed warnings. There's a whole sh"t storm about games proceeding without medical support etc, especially if you as a ref have created that position( yes I accept that it would be their actions that led to it, but if a player is seriously injured and medical assistance is delayed because you dismissed a physio for a bit of mouth....)
PP62
Well-Known Member
At grass roots, up to and including supply league, the Physio is not much more than a bucket and sponge man. This does NOT give him any special privileges and allow him to stand there and shout abuse at me.
In all the years I have been refereeing I have seen serious injuries in my games 3 times. Each time the "Physio" phoned 999 and did nothing more than keep the player comfortable. My point is that these people usually have no more medical qualifications than I do and if they overstep the mark they can go.
In all the years I have been refereeing I have seen serious injuries in my games 3 times. Each time the "Physio" phoned 999 and did nothing more than keep the player comfortable. My point is that these people usually have no more medical qualifications than I do and if they overstep the mark they can go.
richard ramjane
RefChat Addict
surely, if the warning was issued that if you are forced to bin the physio , with the caveat that that would lead to you having to abandon the game, the manager surely steps in at this point... or any sane physio would back off ?
I agree with Richard, you have all the tools in your arsenal kit to deal with this. I personally would advice against binning a physio, for the numerous reasons that have been discussed already. And I agree we are not there to be shouted abuse at, but he sensible before you dismiss a nominated physio and head into merky waters in terms of consequences. Use the manager, involve them; usually the threat of match abandonment gets them on your board, so use that to your benefit!!
Hello,
Park football usually is a 'first aider' with perhaps a bucket and sponge but at pro type level (from my experience) Physios can be reported for their untoward behaviour.
A pro ref that I speak to quite regularly says he wouldn't dismiss the teams physio as they are aware of medical history etc.
Another interesting point is that prem / champ teams have a doctor on the bench too so I suppose if a mouthy physio does get dismissed the doc better be able to run!
Park football usually is a 'first aider' with perhaps a bucket and sponge but at pro type level (from my experience) Physios can be reported for their untoward behaviour.
A pro ref that I speak to quite regularly says he wouldn't dismiss the teams physio as they are aware of medical history etc.
Another interesting point is that prem / champ teams have a doctor on the bench too so I suppose if a mouthy physio does get dismissed the doc better be able to run!
Where about are the guidelines that say you can't dismiss a physio from the field of play. I know it's the general practice not to dismiss although it is not lane based. But if a physio is being disruptive surely you can't carry on the game with him still on the bench just because he is the physio can you?
It has been added specifically in the 17/18 update to LOTG:
"Disciplinary action
Additional text
The referee (…)
• takes action against team officials who fail to act in a responsible manner and may expel
them from the field of play and its immediate surrounds; a medical team official who
commits a dismissible offence may remain if the team has no other medical person
available, and act if a player needs medical attention.
Explanation
A team’s medical person who should be dismissed from the technical area is allowed to
remain and treat injured players if the team does not have another medical person available."
Thanks for that.