A&H

It's almost that time!

David Sutton said:
If for safety reasons or the surface is unfit at one end of the ground, you decide not to play there, period. Why then indicate to the captains, you have one end and, you have the other?
If both ends are fit for purpose, you spin the coin, the winner decides. Don't leave yourself open to accusations of bias in deciding the outcome of a match. What happens if the losing team objects to the outcome because you denied them the opportunity to take the kicks at their preferred end? Do it by the book and you have no problems.
I even tossed a coin when both captains had indicated to me verbally they'd choose the same end. Ceremonial but no comeback from the the teams or the observer on the sidelines. It took a few seconds.
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How can the spin of a coin be "opening yourself up to accusations of bias"?

@Nalbi and @Trip are both right, the captain does not decide the end to take the kicks from which is why the law as quoted by @Nalbi is worded the way it is.
 
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Trip said:
Nope. You spin the coin to decide which goal to use, not to decide which captain can choose.

I don't think there's any real problem with having misread the law in the way you have but if you're going to write condescending posts like "Read Law 10 again, please" it's probably a good idea to make sure you've got it the right way up yourself ;)
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I wasn't being condescending. I certainly didn't write the post to be so.
Having read Law 10 again, I can see that I'm more wrong than right (about 90/10 probably). Maybe a slight tweak to the words in the law will give absolute clarity? I imagine the captains appreciate the idea of being able to choose and I'm sure I seen advice or guidance somewhere on this but as for Law 10 - it is what it is for now.
 
Let's not turn this into a cat-fight dudes. It's merely to gauge an understanding of the KFTPM in rather challenging situations :)
 
I'll give this a few more hours then I'll put the answers I have into the thread :)
 
number 2.

the reds have had to remove a player at the start to even up the numbers to make it 10v10 so...
the injured red GK can be replaced by the player that was initially not allowed to take a kick ... in fact i dont think he's still able to take a kick in his new GK capacity?

number 3.

the non nominated player should obv be in the centre circle and therefore a caution would be issued . If it were normal time an IDFK would be awarded the other way ... obv this cant happen so they forfeit that kick ?

number 4.

no abandonment, i think someone has already posted the law on that , its pretty clear... even up the numbers again

number 5.

ummmmm.... i'm thinking abandon, but what if that happened between the end of ET and the first KFTM ? would that make a difference?
could you agree with both managers to take kicks from say a yard back if thats playable ? (appreciate i'm making things up there :) )
 
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DB said:
Decisions..

Blues vs red. It's a cup final and the score is 2-1 to blues. In the final play of the game, the blues keeper is sent off for DOGSO. A penalty is awarded and the resultant kick is scored. The game goes to extra time and ends goalless. All three permitted substitutes were made during the game.

1. What actions must you take prior to the commencing of the kick? This is all actions from the final whistle to the first kick.

During the penalty kicks at 3-3, the reds goalkeeper injures himself and is unable to take part in the game.

2. What actions must you take?

The kicks resume and the nominated blue taker steps up. As he does so, a team-mate runs in and takes the penalty, burying it into the top left.

3. What action do you take?

Upon seeing this, the reds are furious. A red player runs up to the attacker that took the kick and forcefully pushes him to the ground. A mass confrontation breaks out. After consultation with your assistants, you identify 6 players from the blue team and 5 players from the red team who are guilty of sending off offences. You finally get the situation under control and dismiss the players from the field. They leave with no problems.

4. What are your actions? Do you abandon the game?

If you decide to carry on with the game, another incident takes place. Rain has started pouring and due to the activity in the penalty area (and a blue player digging his heels in), the penalty spot disappears and immediate vicinity around the penalty spot becomes unplayable and fills up with water. The blue player turns to you and says "there is no way we can take penalties from here now".

5. You agree with the player, the surface is unplayable. If you didn't abandon after the teams were reduced to below 7 men, would you do so now and alert the authorities? What is your plan of action?
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You really need to get out more.......
 
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David Sutton said:
I'd like to believe you have briefed your assistants pre-match rather than after ET has ended. At worse, brief them after FT but before ET in preparation.
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I don't brief assistants pre-match regarding KFTPM. If we do have a draw after extra time my brief would have been over two and a half hours ago so needs to be done again. Even I will have forgotten what I said! I just tell them that if we go to penalties I'll brief them after extra time.
 
David Sutton said:
Abandon. This covered by both Law 3 ("A match may not start or continue if either team has fewer than seven players") and Law 10 ("The referee must not abandon the match if a team is reduced to fewer than seven players")
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The match is already over; the KFTPM do not technically constitute part of the match so no need to abandon.
 
McTavish said:
The match is already over; the KFTPM do not technically constitute part of the match so no need to abandon.
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Correct - Page 74; You can't abandon... "The referee must not abandon the match if a team is reduced to fewer than seven players!

Okay, here's my take on it.


Blues vs red. It's a cup final and the score is 2-1 to blues. In the final play of the game, the blues keeper is sent off for DOGSO. A penalty is awarded and the resultant kick is scored. The game goes to extra time and ends goalless. All three permitted substitutes were made during the game.

1. What actions must you take prior to the commencing of the kick? This is all actions from the final whistle to the first kick.


Hopefully no-one had a problem with this part. I will assume that you have all briefed your assistants as to their roles for a penalty shoot-out. One should be on the goal line, the other in the centre circle.

At the end of the game, the players will go and have a quick drink. This is the perfect opportunity to do one of a few things. The first, call in the captains. You would carry out a coin toss to determine which goal to use. The teams do not get a choice. It will be a case of “Heads – that end, tails – that end”. After that has been decided, you should toss the coin again. This time, the winning captain will decide if his team shall kick first or second.

Once those two parts are out of the way, you now have to reduce the red team to 10 men. This decision is with the Red team, not the officials. You no longer need a written order that the kicks are to be taken in – All you need to do is ensure the penalty taker is identified and is the one that takes the kick. You will note this in your notepad as well as the outcome (goal or miss). You should also ensure that the six substitutes that left the field of play during the game are not on the field along with the unused substitutions. Only the players that were on the field at the end of the game are permitted to take part in the shoot-out. A

During the penalty kicks at 3-3, the reds goalkeeper injures himself and is unable to take part in the game.

2. What actions must you take?

The keeper can be substituted, he is the only player that can during penalty kicks (to determine the match). However, because the team has used all of its permitted substitutes, this can’t happen. The reds were reduced to 10 men at the start of the shoot-out as they needed to equalise the numbers; the player that was left out can replace the goalkeeper. He can go in goal or outfield (as a kicker), so long as an eligible player is in goal. If the goalkeeper scored a goal before leaving the field of play, this goal still counts. The goalkeeper (that has gone off) is no longer eligible to take a kick.

* There is nothing in the lawbook that states the player that was left out of the kicks for the reds at the start of the shoot-out has to take part. If he’s thrown a wobbly because he’s been left out and the injured keeper has come off, you again must equalise. It then becomes 9 v 9. I may be wrong on this part but the laws state that the keeper “may” be replaced by the excluded player; it says nothing about the player having to.

The kicks resume and the nominated blue taker steps up. As he does so, a team-mate runs in and takes the penalty, burying it into the top left.

3. What action do you take?

The lawbook explains about this situation in Law 14, but not law 10. Law 14 states that if this happens (in open play), an indirect free kick is awarded. Regardless of whether a goal is scored or not, the referee must caution the player. In this instance an indirect can-not be rewarded so it is my interpretation that the penalty is classed as a miss.

Upon seeing this, the reds are furious. A red player runs up to the attacker that took the kick and forcefully pushes him to the ground. A mass confrontation breaks out. After consultation with your assistants, you identify 6 players from the blue team and 5 players from the red team who are guilty of sending off offences. You finally get the situation under control and dismiss the players from the field. They leave with no problems.

4. What are your actions? Do you abandon the game?

There are a few things to consider here. Firstly, the teams are down to 10 players (the earlier sending off and reds equalising), with 6 players being sent off for the blues, that leaves them with 4 players left on the field. The reds have 5 eligible players. You can-not abandon the game; kicks to determine a match is the only exemption to abandoning with less than 7 players. You must continue. Therefore, reds again have to equalise. Both teams now have 4 players left to take the kicks. Regain control of the situation and continue.

If you decide to carry on with the game, another incident takes place. Rain has started pouring and due to the activity in the penalty area (and a blue player digging his heels in), the penalty spot disappears and the immediate vicinity around the penalty spot becomes unplayable and fills up with water. The blue player turns to you and says "there is no way we can take penalties from here now".

5. You agree with the player; the surface is unplayable. If you didn't abandon after the teams were reduced to below 7 men, would you do so now and alert the authorities? What is your plan of action?

Okay… Firstly, if you deem the blue player has made unauthorised marks on the pitch, he should be cautioned (please hope that’s not his second one!!!).

This is where it gets tricky. The most sensible and most viable option would be to use the other goalmouth if it is suitable. That would be the thing to do in this situation.

BUT… what if it is also underwater? That decision would lie totally with you as a referee. Would you abandon?!?

I’m not actually sure what to do in this situation. If the pitch hasn’t got barriers behind it, could you turn the net around and use the other side of the goal-line? Could you pace out 12yards and mark it somehow and use that for the remaining kicks? Could you use two jumpers as goal-posts like we used to as kids and determine the crossbar as “my head-height”?

I think by this point, I’d have had a mental break-down and would be on my way to the psychiatric ward!
 
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