A&H

Keeper scores from a throw out in open play

L

ladbroke8745

RefChat Addict
Today, whilst at a 6 a side tournament, a keeper scored a goal by throwing the ball over arm and, with one bounce over the opposing keeper, ending up in the back of the net.

I gave the goal.

I was moaned at by a parent on the side line that a keeper could not score from a throw and cited that it is exactly the same as a throw in. I asked a referee resting on the pitch next door and he said it was a perfectly legal goal.

Now, back at the Refs tent, I mentioned it to the person in charge only because of the complaint from the team that conceded (lost 1-0 too). He agreed with the parent. He said that no one is able to score a goal from their hand. This includes throw ins, handballs (obviously) and a keeper throw out. Only reason we never see it is because it never happens.

So who was right? Me and a fellow referee or an experienced referee who is in charge of us and the parent?

Surely as it was in open play it should stand. The tournament rules only said keepers must release the ball by their hands (no fly kicking). And ends by saying all other laws of the game apply.
 
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Ashleigh Goodall said:
Today, whilst at a 6 a side tournament, a keeper scored a goal by throwing the ball over arm and, with one bounce over the opposing keeper, ending up in the back of the net.

I gave the goal.

I was moaned at by a parent on the side line that a keeper could not score from a throw and cited that it is exactly the same as a throw in. I asked a referee resting on the pitch next door and he said it was a perfectly legal goal.

Now, back at the Refs tent, I mentioned it to the person in charge only because of the complaint from the team that conceded (lost 1-0 too). He agreed with the parent. He said that no one is able to score a goal from their hand. This includes throw ins, handballs (obviously) and a keeper throw out. Only reason we never see it is because it never happens.

So who was right? Me and a fellow referee or an experienced referee who is in charge of us and the parent?

Surely as it was in open play it should stand. The tournament rules only said keepers must release the ball by their hands (no fly kicking). And ends by saying all other laws of the game apply.
Click to expand...
Yes very rare that happens I've never seen it,I would go with you I can't see how it can be any other than a goal , no laws have been infringed to my understanding would be good to get other fellow referees opinions .
 
Goal - unless the competition rules specifically mention it! If it was an open age 11v11 and a freak gust of wind carried a launch from a keepers foot or hand would the goal stand? Yes! Unlikely but the answer is yes.
 
The law says that "A goal is scored when the whole of the ball passes over the goal line, between the goalposts and under the crossbar, provided that no offence has been committed by the team scoring the goal."

A goalkeeper throwing the ball during open play has not committed any offence.
 
Ball is in open play so sounds like you called it right as the keeper cannot be guilty of handling offence inside their own area.

During my school days there seemed to be a common misconception that goalkeepers were not allowed to score goals, wouldn't surprise me if there is quite a few people out there that still think the same.
 
As it was 6 a side you would need to check the competition rules as they will be specially adapted for small sided football
As far as 11v11 under lotg then this is a perfectmy legitimate goal for the same reasons as others have pointed out, no infringement.
 
A parent moaning at the ref citing some made up law that a goal scored against his child's team should not stand? I'm shocked! Whatever next? Good call, well done.
 
Mooseybaby said:
During my school days there seemed to be a common misconception that goalkeepers were not allowed to score goals, wouldn't surprise me if there is quite a few people out there that still think the same.
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I'm not sure how long ago your schooldays were but when I was in school, the law was even clearer on the fact that a goalkeeper could score a goal. Prior to 1997, the law said:
Except as otherwise provided by these Laws, a goal is scored when the whole of the ball has passed over the goal-line, between the goal-posts and under the cross-bar, provided it has not been thrown, carried or intentionally propelled by hand or arm, by a player of the attacking side, except in the case of a goalkeeper, who is within his own penalty-area.
Click to expand...
 
In 7v7 games here there is a law that prohibits goalkeepers opening play by kicking or throwing the ball over the halfway line (penalised by IDFK on the half way line). Easy here. No goal. IDFK on halfway.

(In 7v7 half sized pitch games here the GK can open play with the hand or kick. Ball must leave the GK area but not cross half way. GK can kick over half way if the ball is passed back to him/her).
 
If the TO comes back with 'nobody else is able to score from their hand' then that tells you they don't know anything about the laws and can't answer the question. Either answer it in the laws or don't.
A keeper's throw has nothing to do with a throw-in. Unless there's a particular rule given it's a small-sided tournament (for instance, in Futsal the keeper can't score direct from a throw), then it's a legal goal. The rules don't exclude this - they probably would have if they thought of it :p

If it was exactly the same as a throw in then does that mean an attacker gets to throw the ball from the penalty spot if the keeper doesn't throw the ball with 2 hands? ;-)
 
CapnBloodbeard said:
If the TO comes back with 'nobody else is able to score from their hand' then that tells you they don't know anything about the laws and can't answer the question. Either answer it in the laws or don't.
A keeper's throw has nothing to do with a throw-in. Unless there's a particular rule given it's a small-sided tournament (for instance, in Futsal the keeper can't score direct from a throw), then it's a legal goal. The rules don't exclude this - they probably would have if they thought of it :p

If it was exactly the same as a throw in then does that mean an attacker gets to throw the ball from the penalty spot if the keeper doesn't throw the ball with 2 hands? ;-)
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Not that straight forward though. I've played 5,6 and 7-a-side over here with all kinds of different rules. One allows the keeper to come out of the area so they could score in that way, whereas others prohibit keepers from leaving their area. Some say the keepers must roll the ball out underarm, others allow kicking or overarm throws. One, which happens to be the one I played in the longest, had a bizarre that said the ball was dead if it hit the back board inside the penalty area.

So the organiser was probably talking about his specific tournament. Of course, in 11-a-side football the keeper can score a goal, but that doesn't mean that can in all 5-a-side formats.
 
Well it is that straight forward. If the comp rules state the keeper can't score that way, they can't.
If they don't say either way, then say that 'in all other cases, LOTG apply', then they can.
 
Generally in a mini soccer tournament that I referee in there rules are normal mini soccer but instead of over head throwing it's rolling under arm throw
 
Ashleigh Goodall said:
Today, whilst at a 6 a side tournament, a keeper scored a goal by throwing the ball over arm and, with one bounce over the opposing keeper, ending up in the back of the net.

I gave the goal.

I was moaned at by a parent on the side line that a keeper could not score from a throw and cited that it is exactly the same as a throw in. I asked a referee resting on the pitch next door and he said it was a perfectly legal goal.

Now, back at the Refs tent, I mentioned it to the person in charge only because of the complaint from the team that conceded (lost 1-0 too). He agreed with the parent. He said that no one is able to score a goal from their hand. This includes throw ins, handballs (obviously) and a keeper throw out. Only reason we never see it is because it never happens.

So who was right? Me and a fellow referee or an experienced referee who is in charge of us and the parent?

Surely as it was in open play it should stand. The tournament rules only said keepers must release the ball by their hands (no fly kicking). And ends by saying all other laws of the game apply.
Click to expand...

This is my first response on this forum; I should let everyone know, this topic popped up during one of my online-searches about physiological demands during SSGs (small-sided games). So when I first read the post, my initial response was, it had to happen some time, considering the anomalous situations that football usually generates, and that the referee must work at higher intensity to match the on-field plays. I have been following officiating fora (is this a proper term?) not only in football, but other equally popular sports, RefChat is one of them. Also, I am wearing asbestos briefs.

The goal should stand, that is 'gave the goal' should hold. No worries here. As referees, we are, at least I know I am, is more concerned about proper application of law instead of being right or wrong.

However, here are a few points where I have concerns and interest. I reckon the OP and other readers will likely be reasonable to the points I raise.

The referee should be able to clearly communicate to the players/teams the applicable rules. Moaning spectators do not fall within the game-management models, and need not be handled directly.

So here is what I know from the posting - it was 10Jun, so 2016-18 laws apply most likely apply.
That means - modifications are permitted by national associations for like five scenarios - size of field, size/wt/material of ball, goal-posts width/ht, duration, and number of substitutions. The 2017-18 modifications have a bit more latitude.

No where in the laws is there mention about goal-keeper throw. There have been anomalous situations where goal-keepers have hoofed the ball into opponents's goals, and also from direct kicks. It is only strange as goal-keepers are generally not expected to score, only stop others from scoring. Next time approaching the Refs tent and conversing with person-in-charge, do mention, a throw-in is from dead-ball, a keeper throw-out is live ball. The former enters from outside the field of play, the latter is already inside the field. Ask them, what happens when instead of the keepr throwing the ball into opponent's goal, he just happen to throw into his/her own. Will this be a goal, or ...

Okay, here is my real inquiry to referees working small-sided games - do you find the RPE (Rate of Perceived Exertion) higher in small-sided games than regulation field and times? My own metrics indicate it is higher.
 
whistler said:
This is my first response on this forum; I should let everyone know, this topic popped up during one of my online-searches about physiological demands during SSGs (small-sided games). So when I first read the post, my initial response was, it had to happen some time, considering the anomalous situations that football usually generates, and that the referee must work at higher intensity to match the on-field plays. I have been following officiating fora (is this a proper term?) not only in football, but other equally popular sports, RefChat is one of them. Also, I am wearing asbestos briefs.

The goal should stand, that is 'gave the goal' should hold. No worries here. As referees, we are, at least I know I am, is more concerned about proper application of law instead of being right or wrong.

However, here are a few points where I have concerns and interest. I reckon the OP and other readers will likely be reasonable to the points I raise.

The referee should be able to clearly communicate to the players/teams the applicable rules. Moaning spectators do not fall within the game-management models, and need not be handled directly.

So here is what I know from the posting - it was 10Jun, so 2016-18 laws apply most likely apply.
That means - modifications are permitted by national associations for like five scenarios - size of field, size/wt/material of ball, goal-posts width/ht, duration, and number of substitutions. The 2017-18 modifications have a bit more latitude.

No where in the laws is there mention about goal-keeper throw. There have been anomalous situations where goal-keepers have hoofed the ball into opponents's goals, and also from direct kicks. It is only strange as goal-keepers are generally not expected to score, only stop others from scoring. Next time approaching the Refs tent and conversing with person-in-charge, do mention, a throw-in is from dead-ball, a keeper throw-out is live ball. The former enters from outside the field of play, the latter is already inside the field. Ask them, what happens when instead of the keepr throwing the ball into opponent's goal, he just happen to throw into his/her own. Will this be a goal, or ...

Okay, here is my real inquiry to referees working small-sided games - do you find the RPE (Rate of Perceived Exertion) higher in small-sided games than regulation field and times? My own metrics indicate it is higher.
Click to expand...
Harder to gauge?
Small sided matches tend to be 10mins straight through, unless the T.O are complete tools!
11.5mile covered on sat at very small pitch 6-aside tournament plus a further 6miles today...
youth Tournament football - I find less enjoyable, can't wait for the leagues to begin...
 
whistler said:
This is my first response on this forum; I should let everyone know, this topic popped up during one of my online-searches about physiological demands during SSGs (small-sided games). So when I first read the post, my initial response was, it had to happen some time, considering the anomalous situations that football usually generates, and that the referee must work at higher intensity to match the on-field plays. I have been following officiating fora (is this a proper term?) not only in football, but other equally popular sports, RefChat is one of them. Also, I am wearing asbestos briefs.

The goal should stand, that is 'gave the goal' should hold. No worries here. As referees, we are, at least I know I am, is more concerned about proper application of law instead of being right or wrong.

However, here are a few points where I have concerns and interest. I reckon the OP and other readers will likely be reasonable to the points I raise.

The referee should be able to clearly communicate to the players/teams the applicable rules. Moaning spectators do not fall within the game-management models, and need not be handled directly.

So here is what I know from the posting - it was 10Jun, so 2016-18 laws apply most likely apply.
That means - modifications are permitted by national associations for like five scenarios - size of field, size/wt/material of ball, goal-posts width/ht, duration, and number of substitutions. The 2017-18 modifications have a bit more latitude.

No where in the laws is there mention about goal-keeper throw. There have been anomalous situations where goal-keepers have hoofed the ball into opponents's goals, and also from direct kicks. It is only strange as goal-keepers are generally not expected to score, only stop others from scoring. Next time approaching the Refs tent and conversing with person-in-charge, do mention, a throw-in is from dead-ball, a keeper throw-out is live ball. The former enters from outside the field of play, the latter is already inside the field. Ask them, what happens when instead of the keepr throwing the ball into opponent's goal, he just happen to throw into his/her own. Will this be a goal, or ...

Okay, here is my real inquiry to referees working small-sided games - do you find the RPE (Rate of Perceived Exertion) higher in small-sided games than regulation field and times? My own metrics indicate it is higher.
Click to expand...
Harder to gauge?
Small sided matches tend to be 10mins straight through, unless the T.O are complete tools!
11.5mile covered on sat at very small pitch 6-aside tournament plus a further 6miles today...
youth Tournament football - I find less enjoyable, can't wait for the leagues to begin...
 
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