A&H

Manager refuses to shake hand

Q

QuaverRef

I used to be indecisive but now i'm not so sure
Level 4 Referee
Had my fifth game today and had the away team (red) manager refusing to shake my hand or talk to me after the game. His only words to me were 'you spent 90 minutes against us'. To be honest, I feel frustrated that this was the reaction for me keeping to the laws of the game, the situations are below

1) Red team player grabs the oppositions shirt in two different attacks, pulling him to the ground. I tell him that's his last warning. Another player then does the same. The third players does it 2 more times. I warn him, also speaking to the captain saying anymore of these late challenges will be a booking. 1 minute later, player number one drags someone down. A booking follows. The captain approaches me complaining how harsh that was. I explain that he's probably lucky I've given so many chances and I've booked him after warning him twice, also stating that I've already told him as well.

2) ball cleared from a corner, purple picks up the ball in a 3 on 2 situation, red player hacks him down. Booking follows

3) this is the awkward one. Red player plays a though ball, I'm unsure wheather the striker is in line with the right back, or offside. The flag is raised but I give a loud and clears 'play on' shout. Red team scores. I go and speak to the CAR and without me saying a word, he says 'the striker was a yard offside behind the right back'. That was enough for me to disallow the goal and give offside, I wanted to see which player he saw as the last man to reassure myself

What's your opinion of the below. If I'm honest, I'm happy with my decisions but I'm happy to accept criticism if I'm wrong, all part of the learning process
 
The Referee Store
Hi Quaver,
Why are you approaching the manager to shake his hand or talk to him? If he wants to shake your hand let him come to you - approaching the players/managers is just looking for trouble.
Anyway, looking at the incidents - and of course, i wasn't there, but if a player is performing such a strong shirt grab that it's brought the player to the ground, then what's the reasoning for not issuing a caution? It sounds reckless - and was it also breaking up an attack? Even if not a caution, why not a warning at the first one?
You've set the standard here - and the situation is escalating, so you probably need to start looking for a card when more players are doing it. You've done that, but I would question if you may have done that a little late.
You can also be a little proactive - as soon as the hand starts grabbing the jersey, 'HANDS DOWN!!!'.

As for the offside one - if you're unsure, why did you overrule the flag? If the flag goes up and you're unsure, all you can do is give the CAR the benefit of the doubt. Usually yes, you want to be certain of an offence before blowing the whistle - but if you're allowing your CAR to call offside then you've delegated that certainty to him. So if he's certain there's an offence, all you can do is go with it unless your'e certain it's wrong.

You did the right thing in talking to him, but I think you've already shot your credibility there. Out of interest, was the CAR with the attacking or defending team?

Also, don't get into the habit of allowing players multiple warnings. Are you familiar with roadblocks?
Once you've pulled a player aside to give them a clear warning, it's a card next time (unless, perhaps, it's something completely different). Warning again for the same thing just tells the players that you're not going to follow through with harsher action.
 
My attitude is that if they want to shake my hand then fine, but I absolutely never approach someone player or manager, to shake their hand as it gives the perfect opportunity to give you a 'brush off'.
Never judge the sort of game you have had by the reaction of teams at the end of the game.
We referees need thick skin.
 
When you blow the final whistle, stay in the same vicinity. People will come up to:

1) Shake hands - perfect, thanks, wish them well for the season
2) Not to shake hands - don't react. They are looking for a reaction, and by not giving it, you show who the bigger person is.
3) Have comments / want a discussion - react professionally. Empathise, but be sensible in your response. If they want a longer discussion, invite them to discuss in your dressing room after a given time period.
 
Some managers won't shake hands regardless of how well they think you have done or whether they have won/lost.

You get players that have the same bad attitude to the work we do

But then every now and again you get players that restore you faith in humanity. The ones who come over and thank you despite their team being walloped or you cautioning all their players.
 
I learnt a really good lesson from an experienced (and v good) referee when I did one of my first lines.

I went to join him in the middle at the end of the game, and was then all for (us all) going over to shake the managers hand. "No, we'll wait here, they can come to us if they wish."

It wasn't a power thing, but more a dignity thing. We three stood calmly and serenely towards the middle of the pitch, most players came to us to shake hands. It just seemed the right thing to do.

So now, even when I'm on my own (which is most games!) I take up a (reasonably) central position and let those that want to come to me (for any of the 3 reasons above) come to me, and those that don't, don't.

All part of the learning process. I'd never considered it before I did that line - at least you (OP) have had the sense to ask the question early on in your career.
 
I'll move to pick up the ball if it's nearby, and then move to meet my assistants and get my flags back off them, then hang around where I am for a bit, then head off. I'll make an effort to shake the hands of the club assistants and thank them for their help, but it's always up to players and managers to come to me.
 
I don't lose sleep over anyone not wanting to shake my hand, its there if they want to shake it, game stops when I blow final whistle, we move on... They hold a grudge, thats there problem!! I call it as I see it, get most right, get the odd bit wrong!!! So do they!!!
 
Like most of us I wait in the centre circle. The only time I have not had my hand shaken was by a coach who was a ref, and I had booked his son, and his team had lost heavily to a team who were playing a year up.
 
HoofItYouDonkey said:
My attitude is that if they want to shake my hand then fine, but I absolutely never approach someone player or manager, to shake their hand as it gives the perfect opportunity to give you a 'brush off'.
Never judge the sort of game you have had by the reaction of teams at the end of the game.
We referees need thick skin.
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Sorry, just to clarify I didn't approach the manager. He made a point of coming to me at the end of the game to the center of the pitch whilst doing handshakes. I put my hand out expecting the handshake and he said the above
 
Think there is more of an issue than shaking hands here point one refers to at least 6 pullbacks on an attacker and only one caution was issued...if there was enough force in the first pull to land someone on the ground why wasn't the caution issued then?

Point 2 and 3 are accurate and I believe that the correct action was taken but for the first one?

As for the handshake.... well I haven't lost a minutes sleep yet over someone not wanting to shake my hand and never will.
 
That sort of thing matters a lot less when you've been refereeing a while. What really opened my eyes was running the line on a cup final for a really superb referee who had formerly been a level 3. He got the most appalling abuse from the manager of the losing team despite having had a near faultless game. The manager thought there should have been a red card for DOGSO but he was just plain wrong, and couldn't possibly have seen the incident properly. It made me realise that no matter how good you are some people are just arseholes.

If you've made mistakes it's good to learn from them, but don't feel too bad about criticism from the losing team.
 
So, here's a top tip on where to stand on half-time / final whistle.
Always judge it by the temperature of the game and the feelings of the players.
If you have the game in your pocket, and you know the players are generally in a good mood, then you want to be bang in the middle of the pitch, perhaps between that and the tunnel (if present), when you blow up. Means you can encourage the handshakes. Looks good, and handshakes encourage more handshakes. No point you being five miles away on the other side of the pitch.

If, however, the game has been angsty and you can 'smell trouble', that's where you ensure you blow up well away from as many players as possible, and the benches, and absolutely NOT between them and the exit to the pitch. You will invite trouble that way. It also means any player or manager that decides to make a bee-line to have a pop, 'sells' any action you need to take as a result.
 
I normally loiter near the center circle for a bit, get my flags and thank the CARs and then do one.

One interesting thing ive noticed since i started doing womens football is that many teams dont seem to want to shake hands.

Not that i care much, just something ive noticed compared to mens games where in my experience the majority of the time players seek you out, either while im stood on the pitch or on my way back to the changing rooms. I should point out ive also seen this when watching my Mrs play, so its not because i ruin games.
 
I reffed womens football for a while and you're right, they don't shake your hand anywhere near as much as mens. There's virtually no dissent in women's football but I found it a bit boring.
 
A few seasons ago I was shaking hands with whoever wanted to and passing appropriate comments when one player, who had already earned a caution, walked over, held out his hand, pulled it away and shook his head then walked away. This didn't bother me one bit. However, he got about 20 metres away, came back and shook my hand and told me I was f***ing shocking! I let go of his hand and got the red card out and made a note of his words. Having the last word doesn't always pay!
 
Mewcenary said:
So, here's a top tip on where to stand on half-time / final whistle.
Always judge it by the temperature of the game and the feelings of the players.
If you have the game in your pocket, and you know the players are generally in a good mood, then you want to be bang in the middle of the pitch, perhaps between that and the tunnel (if present), when you blow up. Means you can encourage the handshakes. Looks good, and handshakes encourage more handshakes. No point you being five miles away on the other side of the pitch.

If, however, the game has been angsty and you can 'smell trouble', that's where you ensure you blow up well away from as many players as possible, and the benches, and absolutely NOT between them and the exit to the pitch. You will invite trouble that way. It also means any player or manager that decides to make a bee-line to have a pop, 'sells' any action you need to take as a result.
Click to expand...

Agree, and if it is only one team that are aggrieved try to be in the other team's defensive area when you blow for full time. Far better to be surrounded by 5 players that love you and 2 that hate you than the other way round ..!

Same if there is one player that especially hates you, be as far away from him as possible at the end. If he wants to have a pop at you make him walk 50 yards to do it rather than being stood next to him.
 
1: Sounds like you've got this spot on, the captain can't say it is harsh because he's had plenty of warning. I see you're using the stepped approach, which is good.

2: You mention that it was 3 on 2. We're you sure it wasn't a denial of an obvious goal scoring opportunity? If the foul was in the area, was it a legitimate attempt to play the ball? Was the fouled player near the goal, and was he going towards it? Only you can know if something was DOGSO, but it's good to consider these things. If you're giving a red card, you need to get it 100% right.

3: Make sure you brief your assistant referees before the game. If there's rolling subs and the subs are doing it, or even if there's normal subs, consider briefing your linesmen in front of the team so they all know what you're looking for. Tell them you are happy for them to wait a reasonable amount of time to make the decision if they're not sure who's active, so they can think about it. Make sure you explain what active is, in understandable terms, because not everyone will grasp the concept. Even referees struggle sometimes in this aspect.

It can be good to wait if they score, then speak to the linesman, but make sure you tell the players before or during the game. Tell them that you wanted to wait to make sure, because if it is a goal, you can always take it back. In this instance though, unless you had reason to suspect your linesman was wrong (in which case you should talk to him), you have to go with him.
 
SurreySuperRef said:
1: Sounds like you've got this spot on, the captain can't say it is harsh because he's had plenty of warning. I see you're using the stepped approach, which is good.

2: You mention that it was 3 on 2. We're you sure it wasn't a denial of an obvious goal scoring opportunity? If the foul was in the area, was it a legitimate attempt to play the ball? Was the fouled player near the goal, and was he going towards it? Only you can know if something was DOGSO, but it's good to consider these things. If you're giving a red card, you need to get it 100% right.

3: Make sure you brief your assistant referees before the game. If there's rolling subs and the subs are doing it, or even if there's normal subs, consider briefing your linesmen in front of the team so they all know what you're looking for. Tell them you are happy for them to wait a reasonable amount of time to make the decision if they're not sure who's active, so they can think about it. Make sure you explain what active is, in understandable terms, because not everyone will grasp the concept. Even referees struggle sometimes in this aspect.

It can be good to wait if they score, then speak to the linesman, but make sure you tell the players before or during the game. Tell them that you wanted to wait to make sure, because if it is a goal, you can always take it back. In this instance though, unless you had reason to suspect your linesman was wrong (in which case you should talk to him), you have to go with him.
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Thanks for this!

1) As people have said above, I think that a booking should have came out earlier but there was a good amount of time between each foul (until the one after speaking to the captain) and the game was flowing nicely. I think this may have been my 'footballer' head than 'referee' head as I would be frustrated for being booked after a shirt pull but rules are rules!

2) Although it was a very good situation to score, IMO I couldn't apply DOGSO. Player was hacked down just on the edge of the center circle and the second defender was a few yards behind him. I'm happy to be corrected on this though

3) Linesman and captains were both briefed about what I expected. At the time, a loud play on shout was given and no complaints from the defense. From my angle, I couldn't tell whether he was in line with the right back or behind him. I went to the linesman and wanted to hear him clarify my thoughts without me giving any indication about what they were. The one thing I was positive on was the right back was the last man, so if the linesman said anybody else I would have allowed the goal.
 
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