MLS incident
- Thread starter TopCat
- Start date
Ciley Myrus
RefChat Addict
Yes for me. Although its the age old situation of an athlete being somehow floored by a pull of jersey.
Can I just say re above, a tutor, advocating unauthorised hand signals?
Can I just say re above, a tutor, advocating unauthorised hand signals?
Some refs would give it, I wouldn't for me 6 of 1 half a dozen of other. Altidore is leaning back into defender just as much as defender is leaning into him. Where defender is in dangerous territory is the grab of shirt. Still no though. Altidore has sat down of his own accord looking for it. (Btw what was with the OTT point at penalty spot !)
Ciley Myrus
RefChat Addict
Agree re above. Both, leaning, backing in, trying to push, whatever you want to call it so nothing doing there but defender for me, does grab the shirt, shoulder, and gives the ref a call to make.
Good observation Ciley. 'Cutting the grass' is not an unauthorised hand signal. I can confirm this, following PGMOL advice at a recent Level 3 Conference.
Advice you have obtained may have resulted in your slight misunderstanding, as it was perhaps incomplete. Cutting the grass signals should be used ONLY when appropriate, i.e. must not be overused (a meaningless foul on the halfway line for example).
This is perhaps one of the best scenarios to use a 'cutting the grass' signal - a penalty decision outside your assistant's credible zone, where players are expecting you to make some sort of decision. A strong 'cutting the grass' signal whilst penetrating the area leads to credible selling of the decision - you are close, and communicate with an authoritative signal.
Ciley Myrus
RefChat Addict
I can confirm in the universal LOTG book under signals, with pictures, this fabricated camera whore signal is non existent. If everyone just did as per LOTG then maybe life would be easier, I have no misunderstanding, slight or otherwise, its simple, if your not going to give a pen, dont give it! Not giving it is your signal! You have indeed made your decision by NOT whistling and pointing to the spot!
Also, leaving aside the LOTG, say for one sec AR is 100% sure it IS a pen, and, for arguements sake leaving aside this clip, it is actually a pen, the AR is now stranded, the ref has cut grass making it an empathic no, so, its going to be a brave AR and then a sheepish looking ref to contridict this big no no signal!
Easiest way, do nothing, thats you telling everyone no offence has been committed.
Also, leaving aside the LOTG, say for one sec AR is 100% sure it IS a pen, and, for arguements sake leaving aside this clip, it is actually a pen, the AR is now stranded, the ref has cut grass making it an empathic no, so, its going to be a brave AR and then a sheepish looking ref to contridict this big no no signal!
Easiest way, do nothing, thats you telling everyone no offence has been committed.
santa sangria
RefChat Addict
The defender's hand over the shoulder of the attacker makes it a giveable penalty... but a very harsh penalty.
If the defender doesn't want to give away a penalty he shouldn't grab over the shoulder of the attacker with no attempt to play the ball...
If the defender doesn't want to give away a penalty he shouldn't grab over the shoulder of the attacker with no attempt to play the ball...
Ciley Myrus
RefChat Addict
Along the same lines, pointing at the ball when you deem it have been won fairly is good and well until the AR and 4th scream FOUL and indeed the defenders lying there with two broken legs. But thats ok, seeing as you pointed to say the ball has been won fairly.........
Again, just dont make the gesture, problem solved before there is one
Again, just dont make the gesture, problem solved before there is one
Ciley Myrus
RefChat Addict
C
At risk of being a pain, can I also throw in, What does an assistant do when there is no offside, even though its outwith a referees good angle and most the players expect to see a flag raised.........nothing, he simply carries on the game as per.......for me, same principle apply. Cutting the grass is dramatic for cameras and should not be encouraged at teaching levels
At risk of being a pain, can I also throw in, What does an assistant do when there is no offside, even though its outwith a referees good angle and most the players expect to see a flag raised.........nothing, he simply carries on the game as per.......for me, same principle apply. Cutting the grass is dramatic for cameras and should not be encouraged at teaching levels
Never a penalty in the memory of man. GTFU you *****!!! 
1) When there is a close "is it offside or not" call, you either see the assistant either raise the flag to indicate it is, or often you see the assistant perform a 'walking the dog' flag technique to indicate it isn't - quite difficult to describe in text. Joining this, you would hear verbal communication to support either decision
2) Yes, one could classify it as "dramatic for cameras" - but this is what we want. We want all stakeholders (players, management, fans, etc...) to see it. In such scenarios we need to either give it, or not give it - and signal accordingly. If we simply do nothing and play on like nothing has happened, you risk giving the impression that you didn't see anything happen at all - which can significantly affect the perception of you as a referee and thus subsequently your match control. E.G "REF DID YOU NOT SEE THAT" etc... - cutting the grass with the appropriate voice, and whilst penetrating the penalty area, says "I am close, I have seen and recognised the situation, I have thought about the decision, and I am deciding no penalty, carry on with the game"
1) Doing nothing is dangerous - see points above.
2) Your second scenario is where you use the 'cutting the grass signal' carefully. If the decision is in your ARs credible zone, you only use the 'cutting the grass' signal when you are 110% certain that there is no penalty to be awarded, and you categorically do not want your assistant coming in (a good assistant will look at you before signalling for a PK). If there is potential for your assistant to come in, you delay or even avoid the signal.
Nowhere, have I advocated the use of pointing at the ball. For this exact reason (although it can be argued in certain contexts it could be beneficial - when used appropraitely). In such scenarios I prefer the hands behind the back and vocal communication. As I have mentioned earlier, it is key to communicate some sort of decision to show you have recognised the situation - either give the foul, or communicate that the challenge is fair, and you will not be awarding a freekick when some stakeholders may be wanting you to.
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Come on, surely you know the answer to this? Assist not insist - if the referee makes it clear he thinks it isn't a penalty, it's your duty as an assistant to back him up. It could look like the most stonewall penalty in the world to you, but if the referee decides to make a clean "no penalty" decision and you then come in and contradict him, YOU are the one that's made the mistake there.
Peter Grove
RefChat Addict
Hi
With NARs one of the challenges is everyone all being on the same page as the ref. In those debatable situation is the NAR sure that the Ref saw the incident and decided not to give. Nothing worse than the unwanted flag. Ball hits the hand, ref decides not deliberate and lo and behold AR who thinks the ref has not seen it has popped up his flag. Is it for the handball, something else. Is it a wave down. If ref is giving a "no"signal then that certainly helps.
Refereeing is about communication and it certainly helps in certain situation to convey a message that he has seen that and it is not a foul, the ball was played,
Is a wave down part of the magic book. The book allows for discreet hand signals. What is discreet if it cannot be seen!
With NARs one of the challenges is everyone all being on the same page as the ref. In those debatable situation is the NAR sure that the Ref saw the incident and decided not to give. Nothing worse than the unwanted flag. Ball hits the hand, ref decides not deliberate and lo and behold AR who thinks the ref has not seen it has popped up his flag. Is it for the handball, something else. Is it a wave down. If ref is giving a "no"signal then that certainly helps.
Refereeing is about communication and it certainly helps in certain situation to convey a message that he has seen that and it is not a foul, the ball was played,
Is a wave down part of the magic book. The book allows for discreet hand signals. What is discreet if it cannot be seen!
There is no such thing as unauthorised signal.
The LOTG prescribes what signals you MUST make in certain scenarios.
Where does it say the referee must use no other signals to convey messages regarding their decisions? Simple answer is it doesnt.
If we go by your "unauthorised" signals then there is an endless list of things all referees are doing wrong, routinely.
Thumbs up between ref and ar at goal kicks. Thumbs up at start of halves to confirm keeper ready. Gesturing to a player to come to you. Whilst the laws don't prescribe set signals for these scenarios they also dont prohibit any other signals being used by the referee.
Ciley Myrus
RefChat Addict
Absolute nonsense! Your not there as a back up to a referees incorrect call, you are there as a match official in your own right . Same as occasions where ref gives it and you advise him its wrong. You sound like you used to carry Rennies kit bag or maybe you even insist in being the middle one of three when walking about...
Ciley Myrus
RefChat Addict
Russell Jones
RefChat Addict
Coming from the guy who won't even trust his junior AR to correctly inflate a match ball this is just really really funny
