A&H

Offside calls

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Ciley Myrus said:
But why just offsides? You cant be in the right place for every free kick either?
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That's true, but you have a better chance with fouls IMO, because you're not required to simultaneously be at the two extreme ends of the pitch to make a credible call.

Plus, offside (at least in terms of "offside position") requires judgement of a true or false fact, which is what you're hoping a good CAR will be able to provide you with in a credible manner. Most fouls have an element of opinion or judgement about them, which is where your experience as a referee and consistency across a match is crucial to letting you make a sensible decision.
 
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Sunday just gone flag was staying down several times when I was sure the striker had gone early. The CAR, also a sub, running down the line screaming at the right back telling him he's this, that and the other for playing him onside every time. Certainly made it easy for myself.
 
Given the choice of educated guess by me, or to the best of his ability and knowledge Big Dave with the flag, am going with me 101 times out of 100
 
I understand both views, and let me make it clear that I have absolute respect for 'Big Dave'! They very kindly volunteer their time (not only without reward, but also with the expectation of complaints) and on 80% of calls a working knowledge of offside is sufficient. Yet it's the 20% that makes a mockery. Should these CARs be conversant with every clause and nuance of law 11? And if not, it does seem slightly risky to give them a flag and entrust to them your faith.
Indeed, I don't really know why, for the purposes of the 90 mins, they couldn't be neutral and inform you of misconduct. Perhaps clubs should have to send 1/2 officials/parents to (assistant) referees' training programmes in order to be eligible for a position on a league, but that sounds logistically more difficult than simply forcing referees to make educated guesses about offside.
I would argue that offside is not a factual judgement in the same way that in/out of play is, for it relies on interpretation of certain abstract rules. Moreover, as you say, CARs may be guided by historical laws, not those of the present day. Two home coaches came to me on Saturday and made this point (not angrily) about the linesman's very probably not knowing the latest LOTG; on that occasion I felt an opponent had interfered, so offside was legitimate; case closed.
Particularly this season, however, I feel as though I am having more than ever to sell to players and coaches the spiel about 'it is what it is', 'they do a thankless task to the best of their ability, 'it's my call, not theirs', 'I'll change my runs to make sure'. My tolerance is wearing a bit thin, and I would now prefer if offside were lumped in with all the other criticisms of me alone rather than being a reason for players to tell me, patronisingly, I can make my own decisions.
 
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I can just picture the scene for say, Drumchapel v Bonhill.....cup semi and you give a flag to Big Tam

"wtf are you giving me that fir" says Tam

"so you can help me with offsides" says referee.

At which point its home time, pointless even starting the game, your game (in this setting) is now over and its 5 mins to kick off. :(
 
Ciley Myrus said:
I can just picture the scene for say, Drumchapel v Bonhill.....cup semi and you give a flag to Big Tam

"wtf are you giving me that fir" says Tam

"so you can help me with offsides" says referee.

At which point its home time, pointless even starting the game, your game (in this setting) is now over and its 5 mins to kick off. :(
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I don't really know why you like making up these absurd scenarios, or why the fact it's Drumchapel v Bonhill is really relevant? If nothing else, it does back up your story that you've never actually used CAR's!

I absolutely agree with you that if you approached a random sub, thrust a flag in his direction and said "do offside", you probably would be wasting your time. But most of us who use CAR's are able to actually brief them properly, tell them what we expect and make decisions based on (but not simply accepting) what they flag for. It's a fairly straightforward and established process, which has worked well for me so far.
 
indeed, I call CARs in at the coin toss so I brief them at the same times as the captains, so they know what I've asked CARs to give or not as the case may be.

i also tell the managers what I'll be asking them to do, but this is earlier in the prematch routine, normally when I get team sheets etc.
 
GraemeS said:
I don't really know why you like making up these absurd scenarios, or why the fact it's Drumchapel v Bonhill is really relevant? If nothing else, it does back up your story that you've never actually used CAR's!

I absolutely agree with you that if you approached a random sub, thrust a flag in his direction and said "do offside", you probably would be wasting your time. But most of us who use CAR's are able to actually brief them properly, tell them what we expect and make decisions based on (but not simply accepting) what they flag for. It's a fairly straightforward and established process, which has worked well for me so far.
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I don't use CARs because I've had major problems in the past with getting them to do what they are told, which has on occasion affected my match control.
Many years ago I had what turned out to be a league decider and used club linesmen because that's what everyone did. Ten minutes to go and 2-1 to the home team when the ball is with a defender by the corner flag. He has two attackers by him, and I am 5 yards away. He managed to get the ball out and launch it towards a colleague who had a clear run into the opposition half towards the goal. As he got the ball the flag went up so I blew for the offside. However, I was later told that he was in his own half when the ball was played, although 3 yards off when he got the ball. The match kicked off at that point. I took the flags off the assistants and ran without, but the damage was done. This was an intentional decision by the CAR in favour of his team to deny the opposition a goal, which ended up with the home team winning the league by a point ahead of the away team. I didn't see it because I was in one position, when if running without I'd have had another position and would probably have realised he was onside when the ball was played.
The home team are pretty poor and do whatever is necessary to win. On the odd occasion I have used CARs they have blatantly cheated and then shouted abuse at me when I over-rule. (yes, I bin them every time but they do it to upset the game) This is despite my telling them strongly what to do. Unfortunately they're not the worst around here, although they're right up there!. I have them again in two weeks time, and we will have the usual moans about the lack of club linesmen. There are good ones as well as bad, but I'm not prepared to let them ruin what could be a good game, either for me or for the other team.
I've had games really spoiled by club assistants, both as a player and as a referee, so now I just tell them it's all down to me. If you don't like it get your money ready!
 
I do have a brief for the CARs, but combining that with the captains' toss is an idea I might try (thanks, zarathrustra) before I completely lose hope.
I find the premature flag is one of the most damaging things for match control. Either you ignore/overrule, and people will assume you've missed the flag; or sometimes worse, you let play develop, the offside player does eventually become active, and players think it's a cop out. Rogue CARs (often very helpful till the crucial moment) also entirely remove your leverage on goal-line decisions etc. (something I had recently as well).
 
when breifing on offside at the coin toss with the 2 captains and cars I give them 4 options.
I look at the linesman his flag is up the player is off.
I look at the linesman and shout overuled the player is on.
I dont look at the car as watching play keep your flag up someone will start screaming ref and I will make a decision then either overrule or blow
I can give offside as well.
This clears up most situations before we start
 
GraemeS said:
I don't really know why you like making up these absurd scenarios, or why the fact it's Drumchapel v Bonhill is really relevant? If nothing else, it does back up your story that you've never actually used CAR's!

I absolutely agree with you that if you approached a random sub, thrust a flag in his direction and said "do offside", you probably would be wasting your time. But most of us who use CAR's are able to actually brief them properly, tell them what we expect and make decisions based on (but not simply accepting) what they flag for. It's a fairly straightforward and established process, which has worked well for me so far.
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My scenario is, if I, or anyone I know, or ever have known, in any league, from kids to the roughest toughest estate, turned up and effectively asked for help with offsides, then, you would be reduced to tears by firstly the stunned look of the coach? and then laughed and ridiculed so much that it would not be worth even putting your boots on.
Again though, its only what you are used too. I seldom see when observing, flags being even handed out to clubs, and I can swear its been over 20 years since I handed out a flag to a club when am officiating. Different mindset I guess. Nothing absurb at all, you would be stripped of all remaining dignity if you asked a club in lower leagues/grass roots here, to help you with offside. Your post backs up that you have never had the pleasure of even asking "excuse me sir where is the referee room" in the Drum, far less asked for help with offsides !!
 
I trusted CARs less and less as my career developed, they caused me many problems due to their general complete lack of knowledge (they were all mostly thick as pigsh1t) with regards to ANY Laws and lack of being bothered.... Ended up just doing the lot on my own, yes, it aint perfect, but they had one point of contact for any disagreements. I always said to the players i'd get 90% right, the rest was my call and that was it....They accepted that and we developed into a good understanding with most teams... The hard ones to call were the clever nippy strikers, the ones that curve the run, thats hard to 'guess' when your facing play down the field.... Hey ho, worked pretty well though!!
 
This is all very nice, but, I don’t see how people can make a judgement on the effectiveness of CARs unless you’ve used them.

Where I am they are used on all the local leagues I’ve reffed on, with the exception of the top divisions in both the Saturday and Sunday men’s leagues where all League matches and cup matches have NARs assigned when enough referees are available.

I’d have to double check for the south east counties women’s league, but my local men’s Saturday and Sunday leagues the requirement for clubs to provide CARs is written into the leagues rules, and clubs get fined if they don’t provide them.

My experience is that where I am CARs are, not always the best, but are normally at least honest and regularly give things against their team, throws and corners etc.

I’ve also had a few occasions where a CAR has seen a touch I missed and I’ve changed a goal kick to a corner kick.

Yes, you get the onones who aren’t interested, but then I make do, and their team normally get on their back when they don’t get an offside and I reply with they looked good to me, but your assistant in on the half way line having a chat.

I e even had CARs get into arguments with their own teams when they haven’t given an offside and they concede a goal.

Yes you’ll get some belters who aren’t interested, but I find if you treat them with a bit of respect then you get a better response.

My brief to CARs is short and sweet, ball in and out of play and offsides, for offsides if your not sure wait until you are sure, I’d rather be late and right than early and wrong. Leave all fouls etc to me.

(On my course we were told not to tell CARs before the game that you might over rule them)

This works very well for me, and on the odd occasion I do have to over rule I will either shout why (so they know) or have a quick chat if the ball is out of play.

The biggest complaints come from teams who are used to having NARs, but have a match with CARs instead, normally early League cup rounds where every ref has a middle and there are no spares.
 
zarathustra said:
This is all very nice, but, I don’t see how people can make a judgement on the effectiveness of CARs unless you’ve used them.

Where I am they are used on all the local leagues I’ve reffed on, with the exception of the top divisions in both the Saturday and Sunday men’s leagues where all League matches and cup matches have NARs assigned when enough referees are available.

I’d have to double check for the south east counties women’s league, but my local men’s Saturday and Sunday leagues the requirement for clubs to provide CARs is written into the leagues rules, and clubs get fined if they don’t provide them.

My experience is that where I am CARs are, not always the best, but are normally at least honest and regularly give things against their team, throws and corners etc.

I’ve also had a few occasions where a CAR has seen a touch I missed and I’ve changed a goal kick to a corner kick.

Yes, you get the onones who aren’t interested, but then I make do, and their team normally get on their back when they don’t get an offside and I reply with they looked good to me, but your assistant in on the half way line having a chat.

I e even had CARs get into arguments with their own teams when they haven’t given an offside and they concede a goal.

Yes you’ll get some belters who aren’t interested, but I find if you treat them with a bit of respect then you get a better response.

My brief to CARs is short and sweet, ball in and out of play and offsides, for offsides if your not sure wait until you are sure, I’d rather be late and right than early and wrong. Leave all fouls etc to me.

(On my course we were told not to tell CARs before the game that you might over rule them)

This works very well for me, and on the odd occasion I do have to over rule I will either shout why (so they know) or have a quick chat if the ball is out of play.

The biggest complaints come from teams who are used to having NARs, but have a match with CARs instead, normally early League cup rounds where every ref has a middle and there are no spares.
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I was writing a long an complicated post, but actually, this says it all perfectly. This is exactly my experience - the absolute worst case scenario is you have a difficult assistant, ask them to hand the flag over or put it down and then you're in the exact situation others are describing. Most of the time, you're better off.
 
zarathustra said:
This is all very nice, but, I don’t see how people can make a judgement on the effectiveness of CARs unless you’ve used them.

Where I am they are used on all the local leagues I’ve reffed on, with the exception of the top divisions in both the Saturday and Sunday men’s leagues where all League matches and cup matches have NARs assigned when enough referees are available.

I’d have to double check for the south east counties women’s league, but my local men’s Saturday and Sunday leagues the requirement for clubs to provide CARs is written into the leagues rules, and clubs get fined if they don’t provide them.

My experience is that where I am CARs are, not always the best, but are normally at least honest and regularly give things against their team, throws and corners etc.

I’ve also had a few occasions where a CAR has seen a touch I missed and I’ve changed a goal kick to a corner kick.

Yes, you get the onones who aren’t interested, but then I make do, and their team normally get on their back when they don’t get an offside and I reply with they looked good to me, but your assistant in on the half way line having a chat.

I e even had CARs get into arguments with their own teams when they haven’t given an offside and they concede a goal.

Yes you’ll get some belters who aren’t interested, but I find if you treat them with a bit of respect then you get a better response.

My brief to CARs is short and sweet, ball in and out of play and offsides, for offsides if your not sure wait until you are sure, I’d rather be late and right than early and wrong. Leave all fouls etc to me.

(On my course we were told not to tell CARs before the game that you might over rule them)

This works very well for me, and on the odd occasion I do have to over rule I will either shout why (so they know) or have a quick chat if the ball is out of play.

The biggest complaints come from teams who are used to having NARs, but have a match with CARs instead, normally early League cup rounds where every ref has a middle and there are no spares.
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Am "lucky?" that I never have nor never will need help from an unqualified random at the side of the park, I was taught to referee without and it has served me well, as am sure officiating with CARs will and has served folk well too. I guess its just what you are used to.
 
Ciley Myrus said:
Am "lucky?" that I never have nor never will need help from an unqualified random at the side of the park, I was taught to referee without and it has served me well, as am sure officiating with CARs will and has served folk well too. I guess its just what you are used to.
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True.

I don’t deny that people have problems with CARs, but I can only judge from my own experiences, which are (mostly) good.
 
I did use them early on, they wernt all rubbish either, just most IMO. It was generally a sub or in kiddy football a parent. All were estentially biased without really admitting it. It’s a skill we learn to be objective and not care about a decisions meaning to either team. They’ve generally wracked up in a kit or in someone’s car that is really a supporter of that team. To ask them to be objective is asking a lot from some of them! Then to ask them to know that you have to be active and all the nuances of that particular law is challenging. It was just easier to take the flak in a tight call, nothing worse than seeing someone dismissed for calling the CAR a cheating so and so when the lad had signalled wrong but through incompetence not actually knowingly cheating. I corrected it but sent him off.... after that I just didn’t bother, a few helped with ins and outs but not offsides.
 
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