A&H

Open Age One of those 'why do I bother' games...

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dylan22

New Member
Level 7 Referee
Evening chaps,

Match yesterday morning, cup game, couple of divisions difference between the two teams - good competitive first five minutes or so, rarely had to blow up for anything - home team go 1-0 up, as expected being the higher division team, away team equalise almost straight away, home team then start to get at each other. We're barely past 10 minutes in here.

For whatever reason, every time the ball's in the air - throw ins or long balls - home team are always pushing in the back, and I mean, it constantly. I'm blowing up every time - this is where the moans and groans start coming in, and it's just relentless from here on out. Every tackle the away team make, home team calling a foul, every time a home player has an opposing player go near him, he's moaning away...in truth, and on reflection, the cards should've come out much, much earlier.

After HT, home team are testing the water about with some nippy tackles, mostly really clear fouls from differing players, I'm blowing up again and just getting this whinging, this time 3 or 4 players at a time are crowding. I'm escalating through the steps, isolating players, though the groups sometimes aren't backing off - the Captain is always among them - and this is happening every single time. Just the constant complaining and whinging - most of it when it's really not warranted.

Again, thinking back. I should've taken a much firmer line on it. Home team win 3-2 in the end, all shakes and smiles at the end. I'm come away feeling dejected and p***ed off more than anything. Seriously, it's playground stuff out there sometimes...

D
 
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I'm very picky when it comes to pushing in the back on high balls - and I actually quite like having that as an excuse to stamp down some authority early on. However if teams don't get the message and back off or stop disputing the decisions, I'll often pull a player to one side (sometimes the captain, more often just a serial offender) and clarify that if they don't put their hands in the opponents back, there's no way I can give a foul for it. Again, sometimes that will stop them, sometimes they will keep doing it and you can just say "what did I tell you?" - either way, you've then got full justification for a card if complaints still come.

As is often the case with tough matches, it does sound like your problems came down to not escalating fast enough - do you mind me asking what the card counts were by the end? I will escalate "by the book", but if I start to get a sense that they're deliberately sharing the warnings around, I'll skip a few steps with an individual player, or give the captain a rugby-style final warning on behalf of the whole team: next moaning player gets booked, even if it's their first complaint. By the LOTG, you can justify a dissent caution for a single word if appropriate. It might be a touch harsh on the individual player, but he's simply been let down by his team.
 
you know where you made your mistake, the cards should have come out much earlier. thats good ,take it as a learning experience if players crowd you loud blast on the whistle, sore ears lol, move back guys if the dont, nice shiny cards time
 
as @GraemeS said, what was your final card count?

I'd have been looking to get a player in the book - potentially a few. You say the groups aren't backing off when giving a player a rebuke? Let that happen just the once, and give them the warning - nice big monotonic voice 'Guys, i'll ask you to move away once more - DO NOT make me start taking names!' (then give a little 'Collina'-esque death stare)

just out of interest, when you say 'pushing' ... are they actually pushing though? because I see @GraemeS has said that 'if you don't put your hands on their back I can't give it' ... well, that's not a push? I very rarely give a foul (and don't really ever see a ref give them either when im AR) for a defender just putting their hands on an attackers back? I used to do it all the time, i'm stopping the attacker jumping back and heading me in the face ...a push ONLY becomes a pushing when the forcefully move their hands onto the player to push him off stride etc

I'm not saying that's what you're doing, but maybe you could have been? ultimately causing the home team to feel hard done by and 'reacting out' (which I know isn't your issue) but you know, could solve a few problems?
 
for these types of challenges I look at 2 things - eyes and arms. Are the players watching the ball or taking a sneak peak. Is the arm bent or straight, straight arm results in whistle every time. Not a fan of players jumping with elbows either, almost always results in unwanted contact.
 
Have to agree with @Charlie Jones here if you gave a free kick for every in the back shout then you are giving 100 a game. Strikers arent daft and will quite often be backing in and instigating the contact.

If its not an obvious push then i am not blowing again, as Charlie said there is a big difference between placing your hands on or feeling for your opponent and a push.

Back to your OP then you have reflected back and you know what you should have done differently and i am sure given the same situation again you will deal with differently. That's all any of us can do, look back find your development points and try and make sure we take that into the next game.

Well done.
 
Not convinced that "hands in/on the back" = foul.....nor am I convinced that straight arm vs bent arms = foul.

A push is just that....a push.....that means imparting some force/momentum/effort towards the opponent......also be aware that a player is entitled to protect his space.....putting his arm straight out and a opponent backing into it, isn't a push...yet many will expect you to give it as one.....

Sadly, colleagues who blow up for every time a hand is placed in the back are the ones that are perpetuating the annoying habit of players calling "in the back ref" at every aerial challenge.......or throw in etc etc
 
Padfoot said:
Not convinced that "hands in/on the back" = foul.....nor am I convinced that straight arm vs bent arms = foul.

A push is just that....a push.....that means imparting some force/momentum/effort towards the opponent......also be aware that a player is entitled to protect his space.....putting his arm straight out and a opponent backing into it, isn't a push...yet many will expect you to give it as one.....

Sadly, colleagues who blow up for every time a hand is placed in the back are the ones that are perpetuating the annoying habit of players calling "in the back ref" at every aerial challenge.......or throw in etc etc
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Have to agree with you there, I often say "Hand in the back isn't a push"

On the escalating misconduct, sounds like you did the warning bit OK but maybe failed to follow through with cards early enough?

I had a game this season where I took the unusual step of going to both teams at half time and told them "managing" the game hadn't worked so now it was cards. That worked for about 20 minutes of the second half but card count at the end was still 5 yellows and 2 reds - sometimes they just won't behave.
 
I clearly expressed myself poorly!

I meant that if a team thinks I'm penalising them harshly, not putting their hands in the opponents back means I literally have no chance of pinging them for a push. It doesn't mean every hand in the back gets penalised, but I say that as a way of putting the blame back on the players - if they stick their hands in the opponents back and I perceive a push, I've given them an out and they've failed to take it. I feel that it makes it less "my fault" if I've given them that instruction and they've not listened, and teammates will tend to go along with you more as well.
 
GraemeS said:
I clearly expressed myself poorly!

I meant that if a team thinks I'm penalising them harshly, not putting their hands in the opponents back means I literally have no chance of pinging them for a push. It doesn't mean every hand in the back gets penalised, but I say that as a way of putting the blame back on the players - if they stick their hands in the opponents back and I perceive a push, I've given them an out and they've failed to take it. I feel that it makes it less "my fault" if I've given them that instruction and they've not listened, and teammates will tend to go along with you more as well.
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The problem is that they are doing nothing wrong, per se, by having their hands there.....so you are asking them to stop doing something that they are legitimately entitled to do.......mainly to make your job a bit easier.
 
to be fair @Padfoot - I must argue @GraemeS point here 9if I have interpreted him properly)

its not that he blow for a hand on the back as a -push', or tells the players that they are pushing etc ... its the shout that every ref 9i know anyway) does at throw ins/corners/free kicks of 'hands down please lads' - basically shout that prior to the commencement of play, kind if giving the players a warning of 'I am watching for the pushes'

I get it.
 
Charlie Jones said:
to be fair @Padfoot - I must argue @GraemeS point here 9if I have interpreted him properly)

its not that he blow for a hand on the back as a -push', or tells the players that they are pushing etc ... its the shout that every ref 9i know anyway) does at throw ins/corners/free kicks of 'hands down please lads' - basically shout that prior to the commencement of play, kind if giving the players a warning of 'I am watching for the pushes'

I get it.
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I "get it" it as well.....however, it is not an offence for a player to have his hands in a position on the opponents back......it's an offence if he uses those hands to push, pull or otherwise impede his opponent.......so in effect you are telling players to stop doing something that they are perfectly entitled to do.

Instead of "hands down" ....why not "watch the pushing..."? Achieves the same thing....?
 
a couple of simple points really:

  • Hands down is a directive command - no confusion
  • It's short and non confusing
  • Watch the pushing, watching the push etc. can be misconstrued by the attacking team that there has been a push occurred, so why aren't you blowing?
  • You are telling the teams to keep hands down, so even if it isn't an offence to 'feel' for an opponent, if you have called hands down and then feel that it impeded the opponent/was a push - they can't have many complaints?
as you have rightly said, feeling an opponent isn't an offence - impeding is, and having your hands up can very quickly turn into an impede, if you've said 'watch the pushing' and then give a FK for the impede, it leaves players to moan 'but ref, you didn't say hands down'

its all about covering yourself at all angles.
 
Padfoot said:
I "get it" it as well.....however, it is not an offence for a player to have his hands in a position on the opponents back......it's an offence if he uses those hands to push, pull or otherwise impede his opponent.......so in effect you are telling players to stop doing something that they are perfectly entitled to do.

Instead of "hands down" ....why not "watch the pushing..."? Achieves the same thing....?
Click to expand...

Yes i agree with Pads here, my shout is keep it tidy. This covers a multitude of sins!!
 
Charlie Jones said:
a couple of simple points really:

  • Hands down is a directive command - no confusion
  • It's short and non confusing
  • Watch the pushing, watching the push etc. can be misconstrued by the attacking team that there has been a push occurred, so why aren't you blowing?
  • You are telling the teams to keep hands down, so even if it isn't an offence to 'feel' for an opponent, if you have called hands down and then feel that it impeded the opponent/was a push - they can't have many complaints?
as you have rightly said, feeling an opponent isn't an offence - impeding is, and having your hands up can very quickly turn into an impede, if you've said 'watch the pushing' and then give a FK for the impede, it leaves players to moan 'but ref, you didn't say hands down'

its all about covering yourself at all angles.
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Except that you're not....you're actually opening yourself to problems.....you shout "hands down lads"....cue the player who wants the penalty because "he had his hands on me..."
 
Padfoot said:
Except that you're not....you're actually opening yourself to problems.....you shout "hands down lads"....cue the player who wants the penalty because "he had his hands on me..."
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not at all ... I can count on 1 hand the amount of times that a player has kept his hands on an attackers back once the referee has shouted 'hands down'
 
I'm telling players that if their hands aren't in the opponent's back, I cannot give a foul against them. Which is absolutely true.

If I was a player and I felt a ref was giving too many fouls against me for pushing, I'd take measures to make it impossible for him to give the foul. All I'm doing is suggesting this to them.
 
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