A&H

RC in a friendly

J

josh91

New Member
Level 9 Referee
hi all,

Bit of context, had my first level 9 post-course game on Sunday. OA in London, but a friendly.

Lots of learning points (key ones are positioning and fitness), but I wanted some opinions on a key match incident.

2 players are shoulder to shoulder for the ball, one player pulls the other back, I blow up for the foul. Ball has gone miles away, player that was pulled turns round and kicks out very hard at other players legs with studs. It feels like it's about to kick off, RC comes straight out my pocket.

It's a friendly. Both managers want 11 v 11, so I allow them to bring on a sub (and of course have the offending player removed). The players of the team with no one sent off didn't want the extra player, but I went with managers and captains who wanted 11 v 11.

Clearly, not correct in law - but I don't think unreasonable in the circumstance.

Any thoughts?

Josh
 
The Referee Store
If am showing a red card, am making team down to 10 and doing a report
In the instance above, agreed its no ideal but I could accept the enforced substitution and as thus, 11 v 11.
I would prob state the obv during this incident though and make it clear to all and sundry that in a competitive game it would be a RC.
Slight risk also that somebody else might see this is a free shot later on in the game, knowing they will only get subbed...
I guess its whatever seems apt at the time, so certainly I personally would not be overly critical given the environment and both teams desire to play on

As an after thought, to keep things equal, suggest other team withdraw a player to make if 10 v 10!
 
Like your style Josh to admit it but a few of the members on here will be choking on their Weetabix allowing a substitute instead of a RC.... Basic error in Law and not a great start to hopefully a long and prosperous career on the forum and refereeing!!!
 
Sheffields Finest said:
Like your style Josh to admit it but a few of the members on here will be choking on their Weetabix allowing a substitute instead of a RC.... Basic error in Law and not a great start to hopefully a long and prosperous career on the forum and refereeing!!!
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For clarity, I'm fully aware the laws don't permit a sub for an RC'd player! ;)

The argument made to me was that it's a training game for all, most games will be 11v11 throughout during the season so it's beneficial for all if the teams played the remainder as close to "normal" as possible.

The reason I'm asking for opinions is if it happened again, not sure what I'd do.

I guess a good question is - if it happened to you and both managers want 11v11 in a friendly, would you say no and insist on 11v10?
 
You are there as an independent referee, period, you ref to the LOTG, (to the best of your level), you are never there to be Mr Popular as to what Managers want. Who cares what they think...They'll want whats best for themselves and their own team, not the other team either!!!
Do your job, thats what you are getting paid for!!! and enjoy!!!!
 
morning @josh91 ....
unfortunately for you it sounds like you only found out about the managers' wishes after the red card had been produced.
To keep it all within the laws and also to be a little flexible, maybe next time take your time... theres no rush (although it sounds like you felt the need for a quick one to diffuse a potential flare up?)
so, call them over and give the managers the opportunity to make their intentions clear... make it obvious its a RC scenario, BUT if they both insist on keeping it 11 v 11 to make it useful as a pre season tool, allow the substitution.
 
Hi
In the Man U v Salt Lake City game recently the the referee afforded United the opportunity to substitute Valencia after a RC challenge. Valencia only came on as a sub and whacked a n opponent who had hurt Mata some time earlier. United for reasons only they know declined the *offer* and as a result the ref produced a red card.
So for me nothing wrong in saying to a team in a friendly to take a player off by substitution as it is the refs opinion what constitutes a RC. Once though the card is produced then the team plays short and as a sanctioned friendly the card must be reported.
 
And the player who should have walked ends up scoring the deciding goal in a match that means the team wins their league, when he shouldn't have been playing under the totting up process. Unintended consequences. If the teams want a true "training" game, get a coach to referee. We would object if a manager came up to us after a match and asked us not to put the cards through, but we'd accept the equivalent of that request during the game itself?

@josh91 very rarely will you be in both teams good books, and never go out to referee with the aim of being "friends" with the teams. Apply the laws. In reality, who would the managers have had to blame - you, or the player who committed a clear act of VC? In your scenario, you can't even go yellow, as it wasn't a foul where you had to decide between reckless and excessive - it was VC.
 
First up @josh91 dont beat yourself up other this.

I suspect I will be in the minority here, but in a pre-season friendly I'd be asking the managers/captains what they want to do (but the culprit is not playing on regardless), although the standard/level of the teams, how the game has been played thus far, the score etc. may all influence my decision.

Yes, we are there to uphold the laws, but we are also there to facilitate 22+ blokes to enjoy a game of football. We are being paid to be there, they are paying to play.

The best bit of advice is to keep coming back here and asking questions - I was you a year ago (did my first post course game last July) - a year on, I'm still making mistakes, still learning, but most importantly, still enjoying it.
 
I deal with this upfront when I arrive at the grounds for a friendly. I talk to both managers and tell them that I'm aware this is a friendly and we can all use that context when doing our jobs - but they asked for a qualified ref so I assume they want the LOTG applied to thier training match. I'm crystal clear that any violence, gaming changing incident, or abuse towards me will be dealt with as they would be in a "real match" and that RC = going down a man - beyond that yellows for SPA, PI etc won't be coming out. This way everyone is clear - I have even had a few managers ask me not to even be lenient on yellows so that the players can learn. Only once have both managers agreed and asked me to let them sub for a red if it came up and I said I wasn't comfortable with that - they accepted. Point is - try to deal with this upfront, if they don't want to accept your approach then don't referee the match.
 
richard ramjane said:
i think its different now... RC in a friendly doesnt carry over into league matches.
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Wasn't aware of that. I would still be of the opinion though that VC = Red, friendly or not. Anything else that is ITOOTR can be managed appropriately.
 
From what appears to be violent conduct IMO the essential thing is to remove the player from the field of play and it's vicinity. By doing so, you should have eliminated any further recriminations from aggrieved parties left on the pitch and, shown a good deal of authority which should earn you some respect, too. And then report it.
For what followed, I would not have done what you did. Stick to your guns, it's 11v10 and pre-season friendly/training game or not, there's plenty for a team to learn in these situations. If teams want equality (and it didn't sound unanimous) why don't they play 10v10? There's nothing to stop the team with 11 withdrawing a player to equal the numbers as long as permission is asked for and granted by you.

Personally, I don't referee pre-season games any differently to any other. It's 100% focus and concentration from me at all times because bad habits can form quite easily and don't forget, you need to be ready when the season starts, too.
 
xPositor said:
Wasn't aware of that. I would still be of the opinion though that VC = Red, friendly or not. Anything else that is ITOOTR can be managed appropriately.
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I wasnt aware until last night tbh i sent 2 off for VC on Sunday, and one of the managers contacted me to ask if the resulting ban would mean his player misses league games. I advised him to contact the FA direct as i wasnt sure. A refereeing colleague told me last night that its all changed now, so for example, if someone gets RC in a sanctioned 5 a side that no longer applies to ANY football but just the specific league it occurred in. Although having said that it probably would matter if the offence was that severe it warrants a ban from all types of football.
 
LOTG still apply in friendlies. I don't agree with the substitution replacing a red card. It is the player's fault he has committed a RC offence and so should be punished. The team will deal with him better if it negatively affects their performance becaus they are a man down
 
I'm with the majority here.

I referee friendlies exactly the same as a "normal" match, and I don't speak to the managers or captains about it before kick off.

If they ask then the answer is that I will apply the Laws Of The Game correctly, and it is on them to control their players, as if my cards come out I will be submitting to the FA.

As for the OP, you know it was the wrong thing to do, and I doubt this is what IFAB had in mind when they introduced the spirit of the game.

But, it seems to have worked out ok, and didn't lead to further issues, this time, so I would advise you don't try it again.

Aside from the obvious issues with revenge fouls etc, what if a league official had been watching? Or another referee etc, if they saw you issue the red card and then allow the substitution they could report you to the CFA.
 
Always remember when you are refereeing any game that you don't know who is watching. Referee to the laws of the game and there can never be any comeback on you whatsoever.

I did a friendly last year and noticed a senior member of the FA's refereeing department sat in the stand, turns out his parents lived near by and he decided to pop along to watch a game.
 
OK, just to put a different spin on things, consider this scenario:

OA pre-season friendly, reds v whites. Its a good game, played in good spirits by all, but it's clear that reds are (much) superior to whites. Rolling subs have been agreed by all, but whites only have 11. 15 mins into 2nd half reds are 4 up and in full control of game. Red manger has used his rolling subs to weaken his team a little, taking off his star player. Whites are tiring, reds are going to win, but its still a worthwhile and enjoyable game of football for all.

Whites get a rare corner and all go up the pitch. Reds clear and hoof the ball up the pitch. Red striker chases ball, its him v the keeper. He'll score. But white keeper comes out of his box and punches the ball away. You blow up, red striker starts to grumble but breaks into a grin as white keeper says "sorry mate!" No hard feelings from anyone. Definite DOGSO, red card all day long.

You are the ref, what do you do?
 
RefJef said:
OK, just to put a different spin on things, consider this scenario:

OA pre-season friendly, reds v whites. Its a good game, played in good spirits by all, but it's clear that reds are (much) superior to whites. Rolling subs have been agreed by all, but whites only have 11. 15 mins into 2nd half reds are 4 up and in full control of game. Red manger has used his rolling subs to weaken his team a little, taking off his star player. Whites are tiring, reds are going to win, but its still a worthwhile and enjoyable game of football for all.

Whites get a rare corner and all go up the pitch. Reds clear and hoof the ball up the pitch. Red striker chases ball, its him v the keeper. He'll score. But white keeper comes out of his box and punches the ball away. You blow up, red striker starts to grumble but breaks into a grin as white keeper says "sorry mate!" No hard feelings from anyone. Definite DOGSO, red card all day long.

You are the ref, what do you do?
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RC. Deliberate action. His own fault et cetera
 
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