A&H

What would your decision be.....

mikedn

mikedn

Referee/Mentor
U18 match attacking team in white, defending team in blue.... white player in penalty box with the ball, blue defender tackles, ball is cleared tackle is fair but both players fall to the ground, blue player on the ground raises leg but makes no contact, white player just getting to his feet then lashes out at defender on floor with a kick worthy of a rugby try but totally misses leg of defender....... what is your decision ?
 
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Personally I think the key is that a decision has to be made. Depending on the temperature of the game and other factors a good tallKing to for both, if it was a more hostile act or reaction, caution for both. Technically a sending off for attempting to strike an opponent.
 
For the players they would be telling me how the showers are both for the attempts of whatever they did
 
Kicks or attempts to kick is a red card. The initial kick is difficult to picture, but the retaliation sounds a nailed on send off to me.
 
Depending on the mood you could definitely send off both (though not 100% clear if blue kicked or raised leg) In all case though white has to go for me.
 
Not clear about the blue player "raising his leg", raising the leg might indeed not fall into the "kicks or attempts to kick" category, but, from description, white player is a certain red card for v/c , would probably issue a yellow to the blue player, unless of course I deemed it as v/c, its not possible to picture what happened of course
 
How would you restart (assuming you've RC'd both)?

Would have to be a pen, surely, as the defender lashing out was the first offence. Tough sell, though. Restart with a defensive FK might be more pragmatic?

Not trying to be controversial, just trying to learn.
 
I think you've answered your own question @RefJef. You have to penalise the first offence so it would be a penalty.

What was your decision on the day @mikedn?
 
Could we say attempt to kick in a careless manner from blue and kick with excessive force on white. RC to white, foul on blue. More serious foul = defensive fk. IMO.
 
PP62 said:
I think you've answered your own question @RefJef. You have to penalise the first offence so it would be a penalty.

What was your decision on the day @mikedn?
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But what if you go with YC for defender and RC for attacker? RC is the more serious offence, but if it's done in retaliation to an AA offence by the defender, does that count as simultaneous or not?
 
You penalise the first offence, its when a player of the same team commits two offences at same time that you punish the more serious....
 
Ciley Myrus said:
You penalise the first offence, its when a player of the same team commits two offences at same time that you punish the more serious....
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With all due respect, I don't that think that's supported by the LOTG - and I can say that in confidence because I checked the good book before posting!

Law 5 states "The referee[...]punishes the more serious offence[...]when more than once offence occurs at the same time". No mention of the two offending players being on the same team at all.

So my question is if a foul occurs and the opponent then retaliate, is that considered to be at the same time, or a separate action at a later time (i.e. a split-second later)? I've actually been meaning to ask this question for a while, so thank you to the OP for jogging my memory!
 
GraemeS said:
With all due respect, I don't that think that's supported by the LOTG - and I can say that in confidence because I checked the good book before posting!

Law 5 states "The referee[...]punishes the more serious offence[...]when more than once offence occurs at the same time". No mention of the two offending players being on the same team at all.

So my question is if a foul occurs and the opponent then retaliate, is that considered to be at the same time, or a separate action at a later time (i.e. a split-second later)? I've actually been meaning to ask this question for a while, so thank you to the OP for jogging my memory!
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Beat me to it - sorry @Ciley Myrus but that's wrong.

@GraemeS the retaliation question is a good one though - will wait to hear from wiser more experienced peeps on that one.
 
If we're using the word retaliation, by definition it tells us it wasn't simultaneous. You penalise the first offence, then deal with any retaliation as misconduct (but doesn't affect the restart).
 
Referees get themselves in a mess with this "two players commit an offence at the same time" situation. That part of law is very, very rarely applicable as hardly ever do two offences happen at exactly the same time.

The key word is simultaneous, which means happening at the same time. That didn't happen here, one player has kicked out and the other has retaliated, in this case one offence happened before the other so nothing was simultaneous.
 
Retaliation sounds like a nailed on red, first offence sounds more like a YHTBT moment.

The word retaliation is key for me, that suggests that an offence has been committed beforehand so you'd deal with that as the foul. Anything after that is a consequence of the original offence.
 
'most serious offence' is only relevant to simultaneous offences. 'red kicked blue then blue kicked red harder' is, by definition, not simultaneous.

I have no idea what 'blue player raises leg' means. Perhaps he was passing wind? Not a penal offence, though perhaps it should be.

If that was a foul then it's a penalty kick and a card as needed. If it wasn't, then it wasn't - and white gets sent.

Why are we making this out to be more complicated than it is?

GraemeS said:
So my question is if a foul occurs and the opponent then retaliate, is that considered to be at the same time, QUOTE]
Well, the answer lies in the question....'a foul occurs THEN a player retaliates'.

Simltaneously means simultaneously.
WilliamD said:
Could we say attempt to kick in a careless manner from blue and kick with excessive force on white. RC to white, foul on blue. More serious foul = defensive fk. IMO.
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No.
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PP62 said:
I think you've answered your own question @RefJef. You have to penalise the first offence so it would be a penalty.

What was your decision on the day @mikedn?
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I was actually running the line at an 11 -a - side tournament 17 minutes each way all normal football laws apply. Blue player raised leg in a half- hearted attempt to kick ( remember David Beckham's) blue was lying on his stomach when he attempted his "back" kick, i flagged for that..... and the white player retaliated with his missed kick.... referee had awarded a penalty to the white player as he judged the blue fouling the white in original tackle..... he then saw my flag and came over and after telling him of the original blue attempted kick and then the white retaliatory missed kick he then awarded the blue player a free kick..... cue some p***** off white players for not getting penalty..... they still won 2-1...... No yellow/red cards given......
 
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