A&H

VAR Consistency

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What's clear is that Niakhate send off in Forest Vs Brentford was a double yellow. What is not clear if the decision was reached with a recommendation from VAR for a review (for a starlight red) or it was the on-field decision with no review recommended. Its likely it was the latter. Reviewing for a red and changing to a yellow would need a on-field monitor review. But the showing of the second yellow too such a long time, enough for the VAR to reach a decision before he knew what the on-field decision was.

This tackle wasnt too dissimilar to the Jones incident in TOT v LIV, if anything a little worse as it was from behind. The jones incident was reviewed as a clear and obvious error. If this want's then it would be very inconsistent.

While with VAR we may get the number of end decision being wrong reduced, it just has made the level of dissatisfaction for fans and clubs so much higher. With ability to use tech to correct KMI decisions retrospectively comes higher expectations and EPL VAR has fallen well short of that, season after season.
 
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Kinsleyr said:
I know the TOT v LIV conversation has ended and this will need to be taken with a pinch of salt but there is quite the consensus amoung Liverpool supporters currently that they are being unfairly targetted which we know to be nonsense as referees only give what they see and don't have pre-determined ideas of the discipline that will go on in a game beforehand to affect it.

But... Liverpool have conceeded 4 red cards in 7 games this season which is more than they have reached in over 150 previous games. Also, its been 27,000 minutes since an opposition player was shown a second yellow card against them which is frankly bonkers since most other clubs are much more frequent (the lowest is 5 players sent off for any other club in the same time frame).

You can ignore this analysis as its done by a Liverpool fan but the results are based on real data - not made up stuff that the VAR seem to be doing currently.

tomkinstimes.substack.com

Reflections on 1,200-Game Objective Ref/VAR Study; Additions, Updates and More Shocking Findings

It gets worse. (Free read.)
tomkinstimes.substack.com tomkinstimes.substack.com
Click to expand...
OMG
Dude needs to get out more.
But in between the paranoia there's some interesting analysis of the passivity of certain refs,
 
Kinsleyr said:
I know the TOT v LIV conversation has ended and this will need to be taken with a pinch of salt but there is quite the consensus amoung Liverpool supporters currently that they are being unfairly targetted which we know to be nonsense as referees only give what they see and don't have pre-determined ideas of the discipline that will go on in a game beforehand to affect it.

But... Liverpool have conceeded 4 red cards in 7 games this season which is more than they have reached in over 150 previous games. Also, its been 27,000 minutes since an opposition player was shown a second yellow card against them which is frankly bonkers since most other clubs are much more frequent (the lowest is 5 players sent off for any other club in the same time frame).

You can ignore this analysis as its done by a Liverpool fan but the results are based on real data - not made up stuff that the VAR seem to be doing currently.

tomkinstimes.substack.com

Reflections on 1,200-Game Objective Ref/VAR Study; Additions, Updates and More Shocking Findings

It gets worse. (Free read.)
tomkinstimes.substack.com tomkinstimes.substack.com
Click to expand...
I don't see the point of reposting that fan nonsense on this forum.
 
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I still think it is very interesting. Trying to ignore the fan nonsense is hard. The source of the data is not easy to understand.

What I find interesting is say, Hooper and Atwell, do expert observers, or their observers find them passive… and is that a negative or is it actually a rare skill.

As ever with complex deta sets the numbers are useless. It’s only any insight that’s valuable (and I don’t think we trust this particular commenter!!)
 
Kinsleyr said:
Liverpool have conceeded 4 red cards in 7 games this season which is more than they have reached in over 150 previous games....
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Are you actually a referee or have you just decided to try your luck here as trying to get your point across on social media is akin to p'n in the wind?

The is a long held belief amongst rival supporters that Liverpool fans love to play the victim, but refuse to accept blame. Posts like yours, which generally run along the theme of Liverpool are being unfairly targeted, do little to change that perception!

You previously claimed only Liverpool players are getting punished for waving imaginary cards in the direction of the referee, whilst their opponents get away it. This has been debunked and proven to be untrue.

So let's turn our attention to your latest rant regarding Liverpool's red cards this season:-
VVD - DOGSO. With the exception of the most biased of Liverpool fans, just everyone knew it was one of the most clear cut DOGSO reds you are likely to see.
Jota - 2Y. Granted first yellow was wrong, but the referee didn't have the benefit of TV replays or an alternative angle, which could have made a difference. Only has himself to blame though as he was utterly stupid diving in from behind with zero chance of getting the ball whilst already being on a yellow.
Jones - SFP. Went over the ball and studs into opponent's ankle. Always going to a red in the modern game, appeal attempt rejected.
MacAllister - Red for high boot, given by on-field referee and backed by VAR. Overturned on appeal, panels are notoriously fickle especially when an ex-player is involved. Arguments for and against it.

If you want other users to take you seriously, cut the anti-Liverpool agenda crap and actually contribute to constructive referee discussions!
 
Mooseybaby said:
Are you actually a referee or have you just decided to try your luck here as trying to get your point across on social media is akin to p'n in the wind?

The is a long held belief amongst rival supporters that Liverpool fans love to play the victim, but refuse to accept blame. Posts like yours, which generally run along the theme of Liverpool are being unfairly targeted, do little to change that perception!

You previously claimed only Liverpool players are getting punished for waving imaginary cards in the direction of the referee, whilst their opponents get away it. This has been debunked and proven to be untrue.

So let's turn our attention to your latest rant regarding Liverpool's red cards this season:-
VVD - DOGSO. With the exception of the most biased of Liverpool fans, just everyone knew it was one of the most clear cut DOGSO reds you are likely to see.
Jota - 2Y. Granted first yellow was wrong, but the referee didn't have the benefit of TV replays or an alternative angle, which could have made a difference. Only has himself to blame though as he was utterly stupid diving in from behind with zero chance of getting the ball whilst already being on a yellow.
Jones - SFP. Went over the ball and studs into opponent's ankle. Always going to a red in the modern game, appeal attempt rejected.
MacAllister - Red for high boot, given by on-field referee and backed by VAR. Overturned on appeal, panels are notoriously fickle especially when an ex-player is involved. Arguments for and against it.

If you want other users to take you seriously, cut the anti-Liverpool agenda crap and actually contribute to constructive referee discussions!
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I’m a United fan, the MacAllister one was a very poor decision and rightfully overturned.

Jota was unlucky, but looked like he had lost his head from the second half onwards, and to do the challenge he did whilst on a yellow was stupid.

The other 2 are stonewall though, I fail to understand how anyone can say Jones and VVD were not reds though, clear as day. Just because a team hasn’t got reds before changes nothing when at least 2 (3 of them cos Jota second yellow was fair) can not be debated
 
Maybe the Jota is not the best example to flog at Statto if the prem disciplinary panel voted today that the 2nd yellow was a mistake.

(So weird as I thought the first was a mistake!)

www.espn.co.uk

Jota red card at Spurs was incorrect, panel says

The Premier League's Independent Key Match Incidents Panel has ruled Diogo Jota should not have been sent off in Liverpool's controversial 2-1 defeat at Tottenham.
www.espn.co.uk www.espn.co.uk

And the panel had 2 wrongly awarded goals and a missed red for villa against bton. That is crazy!
 
santa sangria said:
Maybe the Jota is not the best example to flog at Statto if the prem disciplinary panel voted today that the 2nd yellow was a mistake.

(So weird as I thought the first was a mistake!)

www.espn.co.uk

Jota red card at Spurs was incorrect, panel says

The Premier League's Independent Key Match Incidents Panel has ruled Diogo Jota should not have been sent off in Liverpool's controversial 2-1 defeat at Tottenham.
www.espn.co.uk www.espn.co.uk

And the panel had 2 wrongly awarded goals and a missed red for villa against bton. That is crazy!
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And who is on that panel . . .
 
santa sangria said:
Maybe the Jota is not the best example to flog at Statto if the prem disciplinary panel voted today that the 2nd yellow was a mistake.

(So weird as I thought the first was a mistake!)

www.espn.co.uk

Jota red card at Spurs was incorrect, panel says

The Premier League's Independent Key Match Incidents Panel has ruled Diogo Jota should not have been sent off in Liverpool's controversial 2-1 defeat at Tottenham.
www.espn.co.uk www.espn.co.uk

And the panel had 2 wrongly awarded goals and a missed red for villa against bton. That is crazy!
Click to expand...
I'm starting to dislike this panel very quickly 🤣
 
A panel made up of 3 ex-players. Take their findings with a massive pinch of salt. Since when have players past and present ever agreed with cards and how many have ever picked up a copy of the laws of the game? Never fails to amaze me when ex-players, some of whom played at the top of the game, go on TV, are often critical of refereeing decisions and yet are so ignorant to the actual laws of the game.
 
Three ex-players / coaches, and one representative from each of the EPL and PGMOL. So there is, at most, one person qualified in the laws judging the incidents.

I could understand them saying the first Jota caution was incorrect, but the second one was nailed on. It was arguably reckless, but it was certainly SPA, and I would argue not giving a second caution there would be an incorrect KMD. Completely nullifies any argument that ex-players should be involved in VAR if they think that isn't a caution.
 
Not sure what the use of a panel saying a second/first yellow is incorrect is. Can’t un-do a decision, can’t rescind, what happened to “in the opinion of…”

See PGMOL have popped up today saying Stoke should have had a penalty against Saints, okay fair enough, but they also say the Saints winner (from a free kick apparently - no idea if taken direct or popped in the box, etc) shouldn’t have been given.

There’s transparency, and there’s dropping their employees in it.
 
Mooseybaby said:
I certainly hope the likes of Merson are never invited to sit on one of these panels. Another weekend of him showing his ignorance and trying to shout down Mike Dean.
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Just saw the clip of this. Dean is trying to explain, and all they want to do is shout over him. Behaviour like this is the exact reason why grassroots struggle so much. If Merson and co can’t have a dignified discussion on it, what chance has Joe Bloggs got when he goes out to referee The Dog & Duck vs The Black Bull on a Sunday…..
 
Mooseybaby said:
I certainly hope the likes of Merson are never invited to sit on one of these panels. Another weekend of him showing his ignorance and trying to shout down Mike Dean.
Click to expand...
The media clearly wants controversy and argument above all else. They could not care less about what is “right”, what the referee viewpoint is, etc. They want the officials to be a punching bag, and then we wonder why grassroots referees are treated as they are.
 
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