A&H

All glowing news from FIFA - again

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PK awarded = 13
PK reversed = 3
More games decided from the spot is not good for the game imo
Disparity between crime and punishment as the bar is lowered for the incidents leading to PKs
 
PK awarded = 13
PK reversed = 3
More games decided from the spot is not good for the game imo
Disparity between crime and punishment as the bar is lowered for the incidents leading to PKs
Agreed. I just wish players would also realise this and stop fouling so much....
 
PK awarded = 13
PK reversed = 3
More games decided from the spot is not good for the game imo
Disparity between crime and punishment as the bar is lowered for the incidents leading to PKs

Except the bar hasn't been lowered, has it?

VAR has merely allowed match officials to see things which they might not have been able to see previously. It has not made it easier to concede a penalty, it has made it harder for players to get away with stupid things.
 
Except the bar hasn't been lowered, has it?

VAR has merely allowed match officials to see things which they might not have been able to see previously. It has not made it easier to concede a penalty, it has made it harder for players to get away with stupid things.
It has effectively lowered the bar because we (as referees) all look for a greater degree of certainty before awarding a direct FK in the box; over and above the criteria for doing so elsewhere on the FOP. Now, anything that doesn't satisfy this level of confidence, can be forensically inspected leading to more PKs. I can't be otherwise chewed with squabbling over 'bar lowering' semantics and I don't think it's a great way to decide games
 
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It has effectively lowered the bar because we (as referees) all look for a greater degree of certainty before awarding a direct FK in the box; over and above the criteria for doing so elsewhere on the FOP. Now, anything that doesn't satisfy this level of confidence, can be forensically inspected leading to more PKs. I can't be otherwise chewed with squabbling over 'bar lowering' semantics and I don't think it's a great way to decide games

The bar has not been lowered, var has merely made it possible for referees to (hopefully) get more decisions right. I.e. they can now see things which they wouldnt have been able to previously
 
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The bar has not been lowered, var has merely made it possible for referees to (hopefully) get more decisions right. I.e. they can now see things which they wouldnt have been able to previously
If somebody gets punched, that's VC and a sending-off, whether I see it or not. The fact that VAR will catch it if it happens behind the referee's back doesn't mean we've lowered the bar on cards.

Same as a pull or foul that happens in the melee. If the AR saw it but the referee didn't, and gives the penalty based on a flag, is that too a lowering of the bar? Or is it just using the officials available and making the correct decision whenever possible?
 
I'm hoping the UK improves on VAR
I can't see them adding to the calamity like FIFA are hell bent on doing. Hopefully, the EPL refs will be the first to implement the C&O ethos, thereby ignoring PK claims which are subjective; and conspicuous as per the stats
 
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It has effectively lowered the bar because we (as referees) all look for a greater degree of certainty before awarding a direct FK in the box; over and above the criteria for doing so elsewhere on the FOP. Now, anything that doesn't satisfy this level of confidence, can be forensically inspected leading to more PKs. I can't be otherwise chewed with squabbling over 'bar lowering' semantics and I don't think it's a great way to decide games
100% agree. We have now gone from a situation where referees would set a higher threshold (rightly or wrongly) for 'fouls' in the Penalty Area as against elsewhere in the field, to one where VAR is likely to recommend reviewing for penalty area offences which would previously have gone unpunished. It's not a helpful or positive step for our beautiful game
 
100% agree. We have now gone from a situation where referees would set a higher threshold (rightly or wrongly) for 'fouls' in the Penalty Area as against elsewhere in the field, to one where VAR is likely to recommend reviewing for penalty area offences which would previously have gone unpunished. It's not a helpful or positive step for our beautiful game
The laws of the game don't require a higher standard in the PA, so any referee who intervenes and applies that standard is introducing inconsistency into the game. VAR is attempting to remove that inconsistency.

Your problem here isn't with VAR, it's with the laws of the game that can apply a disproportionately harsh punishment for a minor foul in the PA compared to the same foul a yard outside it.
 
The laws of the game don't require a higher standard in the PA, so any referee who intervenes and applies that standard is introducing inconsistency into the game. VAR is attempting to remove that inconsistency.

Your problem here isn't with VAR, it's with the laws of the game that can apply a disproportionately harsh punishment for a minor foul in the PA compared to the same foul a yard outside it.
But there's the rub, a foul is a foul......anywhere on the pitch....its not disproportionate.........
 
But there's the rub, a foul is a foul......anywhere on the pitch....its not disproportionate.........
But Graeme is right, the sanction for that foul (a penalty kick) is so much more significant than elsewhere on the pitch. Which is why, historically, hundreds of thousands of referees across multiple countries have worked off a (slightly) higher threshold for giving fouls in penalty areas than the rest of the FOP. Rightly or wrongly this has become 'what football expects' and there has been overall relatively little complaint.

However now, 'minor' fouls are instead becoming more commonly awarded in the penalty areas than elsewhere ... because play in those areas is disproportionately scrutinised by VAR. More fouls given in the penalty areas leading to more PKs and more goals ... or alternatively, defenders being scared of challenging, leading to football becoming even less of a contact sport. I'm not convinced that either of these outcomes is a step in the right direction.
 
But Graeme is right, the sanction for that foul (a penalty kick) is so much more significant than elsewhere on the pitch. Which is why, historically, hundreds of thousands of referees across multiple countries have worked off a (slightly) higher threshold for giving fouls in penalty areas than the rest of the FOP. Rightly or wrongly this has become 'what football expects' and there has been overall relatively little complaint.
Agreed. A good example is when the game is getting out of control. You would give any 50-50 or even a 40-60 to slow game down and help regain control, unless its a penalty area. Goal, red cards and penalties have to be as close to certain as possible.
 
Agreed. A good example is when the game is getting out of control. You would give any 50-50 or even a 40-60 to slow game down and help regain control, unless its a penalty area. Goal, red cards and penalties have to be as close to certain as possible.
But VAR gives referees that certainty, they can watch it back at different speeds from multiple angles, allowing them to be sure that they are making the correct decision.

People blaming VAR for the increased number of penalties are ignoring one important fact, players commit fouls and give away penalties, not the referee, not the assistants, not the 4th official and certainly not VAR.

If referees are now able to see and punish more offence with the help of VAR, surely that is a good thing, and rather than whinge about VAR,aybe people should whinge about the players who give away penalties.
 
I don't think folks are so much upset about the clear PKs, but about the ones no on the field was looking for and the ones that have been historically disfavored in practice.

For better or worse when a player has gotten off a shot or already lost the ball, the game has historically seen a very high threshold for PKs, even where it was a foul anywhere else on the field. (Obviously how much higher varied among refs.) With VAR we've seen several of those called (sorry, I can't cite specifics). We can debate whether that makes the game better or creates cheap PKs/goals that the game doesn't want.
 
It doesn't matter "what the game wants" what matters is what is dictated by the laws of the game.

FIFA cannot introduce VAR and then have referees ignore it if a foul has been committed, because it isn't what the game wants.

A foul is a foul, regardless of the location on the pitch, and if teams don't want to concede cheap penalties then their players had better stop doing stupid things.
 
That was kinda my point--VAR makes it impossible (at least very hard) for the game to ignore things the game has often ignored in the past. That is what is irritating people. And I think a lot of people never thought VAR was going to have that kind of impact--they were thinking of those once or twice a season horrifically missed calls and bad OS calls, not a broader impact like we have seen (in some applications).
 
But VAR gives referees that certainty, they can watch it back at different speeds from multiple angles, allowing them to be sure that they are making the correct decision.

People blaming VAR for the increased number of penalties are ignoring one important fact, players commit fouls and give away penalties, not the referee, not the assistants, not the 4th official and certainly not VAR.

If referees are now able to see and punish more offence with the help of VAR, surely that is a good thing, and rather than whinge about VAR,aybe people should whinge about the players who give away penalties.
It's a fair point. The balance has been tipped, as VAR isn't used for fouls outside the area. So it's not being evened out as is being suggested.
We now have fouls being scrutinised inside the area, but the same fouls outside don't get looked at. It's all in favour of goals, many more of which will now come from the penalty spot.
 
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