A&H

Advantage Over ..?

Alex71

Alex71

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Level 5 Referee
  • Ball over the top into the penalty area
  • Defender is shepherding (shielding) the ball as the GK comes out
  • Attacker carelessly shoves the defender in the back - obvious push - everyone has seen it
  • GK picks the ball up
  • Referee signals advantage, shouts play on
  • 4-5 seconds later the Defender now reacts and carelessly pushes the defender back - obvious push again
I'm thinking there is a clear advantage with the GK having the ball in hand - and that the advantage is technically over ... PENALTY !!

I'm also thinking I can probably just about go back for the first foul and re-start with a defensive free-kick - and have the calm down chat with both players

I opt for the latter - quick sell to the players and look to get the game going again ... anyone 'brave enough' to give a penalty instead !?!?

[Yes, I know I probably shouldn't really play advantage in that part of the FOP - but - until the 2nd push there is no need to stop / slow the game]
 
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if I'm brutally honest id have stopped for the defensive free kick - even though the 'keeper has the ball I'm sure there was/would have been moans about the first shove - I'd have stopped, either had a stern word with the attacker or potentially booked him and then crack on with the free kick - that puts a stop to any petty retaliation and causing a headache
 
Yacinho said:
Possession of the ball IS NOT AN ADVANTAGE
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Agreed :)

In this example though it has bitten me in the bum ... the other 9 (out of 10) times it happens there is no reaction from the defender and the GK can distribute the ball without needing to slow the game down ... low likelihood but high consequences = unacceptable risk ... but ... and it is my worst fault as a ref - I don't like stopping the game, especially if the game is flowing and is generally good natured ...
 
Possession is not an advantage no... but in this instance... the opportunity to conter quickly.... bigger/better kick up field for the GK...
Normally in this situation i would let the game go on. Now this obviously depends if i need a strong word wit the attacker and/caution... if not, its a word with him whilst on the move to watch future action...

IMO I think you did right and bringing it back was sensible. - I would have perhaps waited a second before souting play on maybe? with that delay you may have read that the defender was about to push the attacker back...
 
I am sure you have all seen the traffic light system for advantage, red in the defensive, amber in the middle, and green in the attacking. Alex has clearly shown a reason as to why you never play advantage in the defensive area (except in extreme circumstances - e.g. the WHOLE team has gone up to attack the corner). Sure, there was a chance of a counter-attack, but taking into factors like the skill level of the players, time in the game, and the pitch conditions, was anything likely to happen? And if it was, wouldn't it be easier to sell the free-kick?
 
Drahc whilst I agree that in the circumstances in the OP you would be correct not to play advantage however I would have to disagree with the NEVER play advantage in the defensive area bit.
 
Gary Milton said:
I would have perhaps waited a second before souting play on maybe? with that delay you may have read that the defender was about to push the attacker back
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Spot on Gary, maybe with a shout of 'Ive seen it,' to avoid the defender thinking he needed to take the law into his own hands.

But overall, no way I'm giving the penalty for that situation ... Retaliatory VC by the defender might be a different matter though :)
 
Alex71 said:
  • Ball over the top into the penalty area
  • Defender is shepherding (shielding) the ball as the GK comes out
  • Attacker carelessly shoves the defender in the back - obvious push - everyone has seen it
  • GK picks the ball up
  • Referee signals advantage, shouts play on
  • 4-5 seconds later the Defender now reacts and carelessly pushes the defender back - obvious push again
I'm thinking there is a clear advantage with the GK having the ball in hand - and that the advantage is technically over ... PENALTY !!

I'm also thinking I can probably just about go back for the first foul and re-start with a defensive free-kick - and have the calm down chat with both players

I opt for the latter - quick sell to the players and look to get the game going again ... anyone 'brave enough' to give a penalty instead !?!?

[Yes, I know I probably shouldn't really play advantage in that part of the FOP - but - until the 2nd push there is no need to stop / slow the game]
Click to expand...
It's a situation that I've been part of a few times. At low level football it is often a huge advantage for a keeper to kick it out of his hands, so I personally would've probably done exactly the same. As Russell has pointed out though, this is big area where you can enhance your communication with the players, positioning I think is also important here.

Ideally you would be <15 yards from play and closing down, after the foul I would try give a nice loud, clear advantage call with something along the lines of "I've seen it fellas, we'll play advantage, keepers got it, now't stupid" this makes everyone aware that you have seen what has gone on.

Then if the keeper boots it up field, keep checking back until there is some daylight between the two players.

In this scenario I would be going back for the original free kick. A couple of blows on the whistle to separate the players. The just call them both in for a short chat together.

[to attacker] " the first offence was by you for a push in the back, I tried to play advantage but there was none so we'll take the original free kick against you"
[to defender] " I called advantage, I told you I'd seen it, I don't want any more afters or else I may have to escalate from just a chat next time ok"

Then play on from the free kick. If you felt the need to caution either of them, unless one was much more blatant than the other, I would say caution both, or neither, just to save your own skin.
 
Yacinho said:
Possession of the ball IS NOT AN ADVANTAGE
Click to expand...

ADVANTAGE = POSSESSION + OPPORTUNITY

The keeper holding the ball is always going to be a superior opportunity to a free kick on the ground. More reach, more options, can move around before releasing it.

The question is whether match control concerns should have overridden advantage here. I'd say it depends on the situation, but here the OP has seen why sometimes it's more beneficial to show that you've seen something and aren't accepting it. Even just verbalising the incident may have helped.

Regardless, this one's a penalty. Too much time has elapsed, you can't put it down to all being the same incident. I don't see the logic in awarding a free kick to the defender just because he's decided to push the attacker. Doesn't make any sense at all to me.

If it was all much quicker I think it'd be a bit different.
 
Alex71 said:
  • Ball over the top into the penalty area
  • Defender is shepherding (shielding) the ball as the GK comes out
  • Attacker carelessly shoves the defender in the back - obvious push - everyone has seen it
  • GK picks the ball up
  • Referee signals advantage, shouts play on
  • 4-5 seconds later the Defender now reacts and carelessly pushes the defender back - obvious push again
I'm thinking there is a clear advantage with the GK having the ball in hand - and that the advantage is technically over ... PENALTY !!

I'm also thinking I can probably just about go back for the first foul and re-start with a defensive free-kick - and have the calm down chat with both players

I opt for the latter - quick sell to the players and look to get the game going again ... anyone 'brave enough' to give a penalty instead !?!?

[Yes, I know I probably shouldn't really play advantage in that part of the FOP - but - until the 2nd push there is no need to stop / slow the game]
Click to expand...
Advantage correctly applied. Technically in your situation the second push is a new phase of play and it would have to be penalised but for fairness and a number of other reasons I would have done the same as you did. For me, being able to to achieve a fair outcome is just as important as being able to apply the LOTG to the letter (within limits).

Another option would have been to allow play to continue. This depends on the circumstance, for example if both players are walking away after the second push. In that case a quiet word on the run is a good idea.

On a different point I would be wary of 'over communicating' a foul, advantage or not. Some players take that as green light for retaliating.
 
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I'm with @one and his second suggestion of letting play carry on. Obviously it depends on how severe the defenders push was, but it wasnt anything over the top I'd be shouting at them to leave it and seeing how it develops from there.
 
I'm not sure playing on is the answer. It would appear that the push by the defender has gone unpunished and I would worry about what will then escalate between the two players.
If I have clearly communicated advantage and the keeper has the ball, I am giving a penalty and as the OP said 'carelessly' (implying a non-violent push), nothing further.
 
First of all I'd be squeezing in and making sure everyone (especially the defender) knows I've seen it, and telling them to play on... If the second push is a little fanny pathetic thing then I'd be shouting at them both to 'leave it alone' or stopping play to award a defensive free kick if I can't allow play to continue..

Communication with the players is key here, 9/10 times communicating with players will avoid the need to blow the whistle/stop play/discipline
 
paulwfromtheden said:
I'm not sure playing on is the answer. It would appear that the push by the defender has gone unpunished and I would worry about what will then escalate between the two players.
If I have clearly communicated advantage and the keeper has the ball, I am giving a penalty and as the OP said 'carelessly' (implying a non-violent push), nothing further.
Click to expand...

A push is not careless. It is adopting an aggressive attitude. Caution.
 
drahc said:
A push is not careless. It is adopting an aggressive attitude. Caution.
Click to expand...

I disagree. It's CRUEF. 'Adopting an Aggressive Attitude' isn't in the LOTG - rather, it's a directive/clarification/caution code from your RA.
And by the laws, you wouldn't caution unless the push is reckless, given this push is occurring in play.

So yes, it is careless. or reckless, or using excessive force.

As others state, if it's little more than a bit of argey-bargey you may just be able to control it verball. I was picturing the defender running back and flattening the attacker, or at least sending him back a few years, quite a few seconds after the initial push.

There's just something that wouldn't sit right about awarding a defensive free kick for a defensive foul...
 
CapnBloodbeard said:
I disagree. It's CRUEF. 'Adopting an Aggressive Attitude' isn't in the LOTG - rather, it's a directive/clarification/caution code from your RA.
And by the laws, you wouldn't caution unless the push is reckless, given this push is occurring in play.

So yes, it is careless. or reckless, or using excessive force.

As others state, if it's little more than a bit of argey-bargey you may just be able to control it verball. I was picturing the defender running back and flattening the attacker, or at least sending him back a few years, quite a few seconds after the initial push.

There's just something that wouldn't sit right about awarding a defensive free kick for a defensive foul...
Click to expand...

Has one adopted an aggressive attitude? Yes.

I don't understand all your abbreviations, but the point still stands. He has adopted an aggressive attitude. I am cautioning for that.
 
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