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Junior/Youth Delayed offside call

Hi everyone,

I am a 15 year old referee from Australia and love the fount of knowledge available through this forum. I know many of you are doing it tough during lockdown and hope you are able to get back onto the pitch soon! We are thinking of you.,.

Anyway... doing a pre-season U16s game on the weekend and find myself a few seconds late to pick up an off-side signalled by my AR.

While I am processing the situation and about to pull up the game, a defender in the penalty area brings down the striker from behind. Actually, this foul occurs almost simultaneously with my offside whistle.

It’s not dangerous (but possibly reckless) and a penalty every day of the week. It would have been DOGSO if the offside had not occurred.

in the moment, I am torn about what to do but end up bringing the game back to the off-side event and have a word to the defender about the tackle. No caution or other sanction for the defender. I am not the striker’s best friend!

So... questions... based on my description was this the correct decision and could I have cautioned the defender for unsporting behaviour even if his tacked might have occurred a second or two before / after the whistle for offside was blown?
 
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Hi everyone,

I am a 15 year old referee from Australia and love the fount of knowledge available through this forum. I know many of you are doing it tough during lockdown and hope you are able to get back onto the pitch soon! We are thinking of you.,.

Anyway... doing a pre-season U16s game on the weekend and find myself a few seconds late to pick up an off-side signalled by my AR.

While I am processing the situation and about to pull up the game, a defender in the penalty area brings down the striker from behind. Actually, this foul occurs almost simultaneously with my offside whistle.

It’s not dangerous (but possibly reckless) and a penalty every day of the week. It would have been DOGSO if the offside had not occurred.

in the moment, I am torn about what to do but end up bringing the game back to the off-side event and have a word to the defender about the tackle. No caution or other sanction for the defender. I am not the striker’s best friend!

So... questions... based on my description was this the correct decision and could I have cautioned the defender for unsporting behaviour even if his tacked might have occurred a second or two before / after the whistle for offside was blown?
The offside occurred first so you were right to pull it back
DOGSO and SPA (Stopping Promising Attack) can't be penalised because no goal-scoring opportunity was denied
Reckless and Dangerous could still be sanctioned however
 
The offside occurred first so you were right to pull it back
DOGSO and SPA (Stopping Promising Attack) can't be penalised because no goal-scoring opportunity was denied
Reckless and Dangerous could still be sanctioned however
Thanks Big Cat. That makes sense. Much appreciated.
 
...and then it's about how you "sell" it. Not just to the players involved, but to the other players, benches and parents/fans.

This is where something like getting your IDFK arm quickly and doing the "draw the line in the air" sign with the other hand might be useful.
And if the defender has clattered the attacker then it's important you take control.
If it's in the penalty area, one thing to consider is where to stand - if you stand over the prone players you might get surrounded, so think about standing closer to the goal line so you can see the whole field and have all the players in view.
And then how to deal with the defender. Seems like you want to give at least a verbal warning. Talking to the player (and if there is a YC) is another opportunity to also communicate with the rest of the players/audience so think about your body language and hands.
If you tell the player "it's offside because the offside happened first, but you committed a reckless tackle and I have to give you a yellow card.." or whatever, do it loud and clear then other players will hear.

Point being - don't let anyone in the ground think it's a penalty - from first whistle, to checking on injured players, to your positioning in the aftermath, to handling the follow up ;)
 
Hi everyone,

I am a 15 year old referee from Australia and love the fount of knowledge available through this forum. I know many of you are doing it tough during lockdown and hope you are able to get back onto the pitch soon! We are thinking of you.,.

Anyway... doing a pre-season U16s game on the weekend and find myself a few seconds late to pick up an off-side signalled by my AR.

While I am processing the situation and about to pull up the game, a defender in the penalty area brings down the striker from behind. Actually, this foul occurs almost simultaneously with my offside whistle.

It’s not dangerous (but possibly reckless) and a penalty every day of the week. It would have been DOGSO if the offside had not occurred.

in the moment, I am torn about what to do but end up bringing the game back to the off-side event and have a word to the defender about the tackle. No caution or other sanction for the defender. I am not the striker’s best friend!

So... questions... based on my description was this the correct decision and could I have cautioned the defender for unsporting behaviour even if his tacked might have occurred a second or two before / after the whistle for offside was blown?
Hi mate, where in Aust? I'm in Sydney, a member of state league and two local referee associations.

Also, incident well described. Not too many 15 yo referees can describe an incident like you did. It's very important for incident/send off reports.

I agree with both posters above. The only thing I would add is on positioning. Could have you been wider to have the AR at the back of your line of sight as to have picked it up early. But if the flow of play didn't allow this then you were right to be a few seconds (only) late on it as your higher priority is not missing any fouls in the PA.
 
Hi mate, where in Aust? I'm in Sydney, a member of state league and two local referee associations.

Also, incident well described. Not too many 15 yo referees can describe an incident like you did. It's very important for incident/send off reports.

I agree with both posters above. The only thing I would add is on positioning. Could have you been wider to have the AR at the back of your line of sight as to have picked it up early. But if the flow of play didn't allow this then you were right to be a few seconds (only) late on it as your higher priority is not missing any fouls in the PA.

one. I am on the Sunshine Coast. I just do the local Sunshine Coast comp and started doing a bit of junior NPL last year. I could definitely have been wider and probably should have seen the flag earlier. It is taking me

Thanks one. I am on the Sunshine Coast. I just do the local Sunshine Coast comp and a bit of junior NPL through Football Qld. I could have been wider and should have definitely seen the flag earlier. I am glad I got this stuff-up out of the way during pre-season. There will no doubt be many more to come throughout the season. :)

...and then it's about how you "sell" it. Not just to the players involved, but to the other players, benches and parents/fans.

This is where something like getting your IDFK arm quickly and doing the "draw the line in the air" sign with the other hand might be useful.
And if the defender has clattered the attacker then it's important you take control.
If it's in the penalty area, one thing to consider is where to stand - if you stand over the prone players you might get surrounded, so think about standing closer to the goal line so you can see the whole field and have all the players in view.
And then how to deal with the defender. Seems like you want to give at least a verbal warning. Talking to the player (and if there is a YC) is another opportunity to also communicate with the rest of the players/audience so think about your body language and hands.
If you tell the player "it's offside because the offside happened first, but you committed a reckless tackle and I have to give you a yellow card.." or whatever, do it loud and clear then other players will hear.

Point being - don't let anyone in the ground think it's a penalty - from first whistle, to checking on injured players, to your positioning in the aftermath, to handling the follow up ;)

Thanks Santa sangria. This is very helpful too and great advice. I realise now (after the event) that my uncertainty in the moment meant that I did a pretty bad job of selling my decision(s).
 
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Thanks Santa sangria. This is very helpful too and great advice. I realise now (after the event) that my uncertainty in the moment meant that I did a pretty bad job of selling my decision(s).
Hey :) - like One said - that you are able to come here, consider your actions and self-analyse is totally fantastic for any age of referee! Keep enjoying the games.

This kind of decision selling is on my mind because of the last game I had. I was lucky enough to get to referee an U21 vs U17 friendly of the biggest team in the country last weekend. It went great but there was one moment that was really tough. After getting a reckless yellow in the first half, on 80 mins the same U17 player hauled down an attacker turning into an empty half. It was so blatant it had to be a second yellow. But of course you don't want to give a second yellow in a friendly - this was a special game fo me - the U17 coach is a famous ex pro - this is my moment in the spotlight. I've made the decision, shown the yellow strongly, the player is surprised "...it's a friendly" and I guiltily, meekly show the red far too self-consciously. I was sure of the decision but I was on the other side of the field hiding from the bench rather than communicating with them. I should have show a strong red with maybe a shrug of the shoulders to clearly communicate my decision and control. Instead my weak, quick card and weak body language looked more like I was not in control. Thankfully nothing else happened. But in that moment I lost so much of the credibility and control I had built up. Good decision, poor body language.
 
Hey :) - like One said - that you are able to come here, consider your actions and self-analyse is totally fantastic for any age of referee! Keep enjoying the games.

This kind of decision selling is on my mind because of the last game I had. I was lucky enough to get to referee an U21 vs U17 friendly of the biggest team in the country last weekend. It went great but there was one moment that was really tough. After getting a reckless yellow in the first half, on 80 mins the same U17 player hauled down an attacker turning into an empty half. It was so blatant it had to be a second yellow. But of course you don't want to give a second yellow in a friendly - this was a special game fo me - the U17 coach is a famous ex pro - this is my moment in the spotlight. I've made the decision, shown the yellow strongly, the player is surprised "...it's a friendly" and I guiltily, meekly show the red far too self-consciously. I was sure of the decision but I was on the other side of the field hiding from the bench rather than communicating with them. I should have show a strong red with maybe a shrug of the shoulders to clearly communicate my decision and control. Instead my weak, quick card and weak body language looked more like I was not in control. Thankfully nothing else happened. But in that moment I lost so much of the credibility and control I had built up. Good decision, poor body language.
Last friendly I did, I sent three players off in the first half! Decided to allow them to be replaced by subs at half time. I'm reticent when taking on 'friendlies', but desperate times require desperate measures
 
Tell us more!
One very very blatant DOGSO and one fight
Probably the most difficult game I've had this season. Often the way with friendlies. Happily, both teams were very praiseworthy of my stewardship as it was one of those games in which it was an achievement just to reach 90mins
Knew I was in trouble when I pulled into the car park at 9:30am to be welcomed by a gaggle of lads already on the Carlsberg. To be fair, that mob were thrilled by the entertainment and didn't cause any trouble. Barnet Sunday League, not usually my hunting ground
 
Hi everyone,

I am a 15 year old referee from Australia and love the fount of knowledge available through this forum. I know many of you are doing it tough during lockdown and hope you are able to get back onto the pitch soon! We are thinking of you.,.

Anyway... doing a pre-season U16s game on the weekend and find myself a few seconds late to pick up an off-side signalled by my AR.

While I am processing the situation and about to pull up the game, a defender in the penalty area brings down the striker from behind. Actually, this foul occurs almost simultaneously with my offside whistle.

It’s not dangerous (but possibly reckless) and a penalty every day of the week. It would have been DOGSO if the offside had not occurred.

in the moment, I am torn about what to do but end up bringing the game back to the off-side event and have a word to the defender about the tackle. No caution or other sanction for the defender. I am not the striker’s best friend!

So... questions... based on my description was this the correct decision and could I have cautioned the defender for unsporting behaviour even if his tacked might have occurred a second or two before / after the whistle for offside was blown?
I'm sorry for resurrecting an old-ish thread, BUT this situation accurately describes an incident that occurred in my first game yesterday (and sorry Ryan, I did come across this post by stalking your profile, just wanted to see how you were progressing, again considering our similar levels).

First thing I'm going to bring up is I had no official AR's, but I did have one player/sub/official from each club running a line. The CAR in this particular incident is from the club of the attacking team. I gave both sides the same instructions (because they would possibly be rotating who would be running the line based off the interchange/substitutions through the game), "All I want you to do is offsides. I don't want you worrying about fouls, I will do those myself. Unless you see someone punch someone in the face with my back turned, but I'm sure I'll hear about that from more than you."

Midway through second half, had a player put through on goal. He gets taken out, clear penalty. I blow the whistle, but haven't made any signal. At that point, I hear the goalkeeper bellow out "How can that be a penalty, he's miles offside." I look over to the CAR, and sure enough, his flag is out. I note that the flag isn't up, or to the side, but out as you would signal an offside in the middle of the park. It's at this point he puts the flag down and the goalkeeper yells out again, "Oh, so now it's not offside, well done mate!" So at this point, I then signal for the IFK, because of how I saw the flag, and the attacking team start to complain, so I go over to the CAR, and ask him "which player was offside?" And he replies back, "nah, no one offside, I was saying penalty." That's when I told him, "Pre match instructions I gave you all were to not worry about fouls. The way you've signalled is an offside, so I'm going to have to give the offside." Captain of the attacking team came up complaining that the goalkeeper was getting in my ear, and then I just told him what I told the CAR. He wasn't happy, but accepted it, and play went from there.

Basically, I think what I'm trying to say, is like Sangria said.. Once I saw what I saw, I had to sell the why and how, and hopefully it went ok, as I didn't have any complaints to me about it after the fact. Has anyone else had any incidents like that? I think it's quite a tricky thing to handle games without official ARs, and I can see why some people on here say they tell the CARs not to worry about offsides either. That's why I try to have one each side, it balances out, and the way I see it, if I'm only going to use them for ball in/out, what's the point?
 
The penalty should've stood / been given if there was no offside. You've got yourself in a muddle.


CARs usually run their own defensive line, when used, most places in England.
 
You don't have to accept an offside flag, even from a neutral assistant. Once the CAR tells you it wasn't offside the only possible restart is the penalty.
 
Yeah, I think I can understand that a bit better.

I guess I was just a bit peeved on the spot at what seemed like an act of trying to game a penalty for his team, which is why I was a bit pedantic at how he had his flag out.

I mean, other than that incident, I didn't have an issue with the CARs in regards to offsides. The reason why I say that, is because they were calling their own team offside throughout the game, so when I saw the flag out infront of him (not up, or not to the side, I initially had no reason not to believe he was calling one of his own players offside). But, as bester says that usually in England the CARs run their own defensive line, it's something I may keep my mind on in the future as I'm dead certain I'll be using CARs for most games going forward.

Is it ok for the CARs to swap ends at half-time just like the teams?
 
CARs usually stay in line with their own club's defensive line for the whole match; this means swapping ends at half time to stay with their club's defensive line. (And, I'm pretty sure your CFA will tell you to position CARs this way).
 
CARs usually stay in line with their own club's defensive line for the whole match; this means swapping ends at half time to stay with their club's defensive line. (And, I'm pretty sure your CFA will tell you to position CARs this way).
It's something I actually haven't had a discussion about (or have been told about to be honest), but the consensus at games has either been:
* Home team provides both CARs or;
* Home team CAR where the Senior AR would be positioned on the sideline with the technical area.

Have a education session this week, I will bring it up then, just as its something I've never heard mentioned outside of here come to think of it
 
One very very blatant DOGSO and one fight
Probably the most difficult game I've had this season. Often the way with friendlies. Happily, both teams were very praiseworthy of my stewardship as it was one of those games in which it was an achievement just to reach 90mins
Knew I was in trouble when I pulled into the car park at 9:30am to be welcomed by a gaggle of lads already on the Carlsberg. To be fair, that mob were thrilled by the entertainment and didn't cause any trouble. Barnet Sunday League, not usually my hunting
I'm sorry for resurrecting an old-ish thread, BUT this situation accurately describes an incident that occurred in my first game yesterday (and sorry Ryan, I did come across this post by stalking your profile, just wanted to see how you were progressing, again considering our similar levels).

First thing I'm going to bring up is I had no official AR's, but I did have one player/sub/official from each club running a line. The CAR in this particular incident is from the club of the attacking team. I gave both sides the same instructions (because they would possibly be rotating who would be running the line based off the interchange/substitutions through the game), "All I want you to do is offsides. I don't want you worrying about fouls, I will do those myself. Unless you see someone punch someone in the face with my back turned, but I'm sure I'll hear about that from more than you."

Midway through second half, had a player put through on goal. He gets taken out, clear penalty. I blow the whistle, but haven't made any signal. At that point, I hear the goalkeeper bellow out "How can that be a penalty, he's miles offside." I look over to the CAR, and sure enough, his flag is out. I note that the flag isn't up, or to the side, but out as you would signal an offside in the middle of the park. It's at this point he puts the flag down and the goalkeeper yells out again, "Oh, so now it's not offside, well done mate!" So at this point, I then signal for the IFK, because of how I saw the flag, and the attacking team start to complain, so I go over to the CAR, and ask him "which player was offside?" And he replies back, "nah, no one offside, I was saying penalty." That's when I told him, "Pre match instructions I gave you all were to not worry about fouls. The way you've signalled is an offside, so I'm going to have to give the offside." Captain of the attacking team came up complaining that the goalkeeper was getting in my ear, and then I just told him what I told the CAR. He wasn't happy, but accepted it, and play went from there.

Basically, I think what I'm trying to say, is like Sangria said.. Once I saw what I saw, I had to sell the why and how, and hopefully it went ok, as I didn't have any complaints to me about it after the fact. Has anyone else had any incidents like that? I think it's quite a tricky thing to handle games without official ARs, and I can see why some people on here say they tell the CARs not to worry about offsides either. That's why I try to have one each side, it balances out, and the way I see it, if I'm only going to use them for ball in/out, what's the point?
I'm sorry for resurrecting an old-ish thread, BUT this situation accurately describes an incident that occurred in my first game yesterday (and sorry Ryan, I did come across this post by stalking your profile, just wanted to see how you were progressing, again considering our similar levels).

First thing I'm going to bring up is I had no official AR's, but I did have one player/sub/official from each club running a line. The CAR in this particular incident is from the club of the attacking team. I gave both sides the same instructions (because they would possibly be rotating who would be running the line based off the interchange/substitutions through the game), "All I want you to do is offsides. I don't want you worrying about fouls, I will do those myself. Unless you see someone punch someone in the face with my back turned, but I'm sure I'll hear about that from more than you."

Midway through second half, had a player put through on goal. He gets taken out, clear penalty. I blow the whistle, but haven't made any signal. At that point, I hear the goalkeeper bellow out "How can that be a penalty, he's miles offside." I look over to the CAR, and sure enough, his flag is out. I note that the flag isn't up, or to the side, but out as you would signal an offside in the middle of the park. It's at this point he puts the flag down and the goalkeeper yells out again, "Oh, so now it's not offside, well done mate!" So at this point, I then signal for the IFK, because of how I saw the flag, and the attacking team start to complain, so I go over to the CAR, and ask him "which player was offside?" And he replies back, "nah, no one offside, I was saying penalty." That's when I told him, "Pre match instructions I gave you all were to not worry about fouls. The way you've signalled is an offside, so I'm going to have to give the offside." Captain of the attacking team came up complaining that the goalkeeper was getting in my ear, and then I just told him what I told the CAR. He wasn't happy, but accepted it, and play went from there.

Basically, I think what I'm trying to say, is like Sangria said.. Once I saw what I saw, I had to sell the why and how, and hopefully it went ok, as I didn't have any complaints to me about it after the fact. Has anyone else had any incidents like that? I think it's quite a tricky thing to handle games without official ARs, and I can see why some people on here say they tell the CARs not to worry about offsides either. That's why I try to have one each side, it balances out, and the way I see it, if I'm only going to use them for ball in/out, what's the point?
All good Nic. Sounds like a tricky situation and one of those ones that lingers in your mind afterwards. I am not sure what it is like where you are but my region is really well supported with referees and that means I rarely have to deal with CARs. If I do, it’s generally only on one line. When you are used to having a good referee team you trust these kinds of things can definitely throw you. Don’t beat yourself up. Next weekend is only 5 days away! 😀
 
It's something I actually haven't had a discussion about (or have been told about to be honest), but the consensus at games has either been:
* Home team provides both CARs or;
* Home team CAR where the Senior AR would be positioned on the sideline with the technical area.

Have a education session this week, I will bring it up then, just as its something I've never heard mentioned outside of here come to think of it
So, I ended up asking what our protocol here is regarding non-neutral ARs in our league, and was basically told:
* Try not to get them to do offsides
* IF you trust them to do offsides, recommendation was to use the non-neutral AR's on their clubs attacking side, because 'if/when they do flag offside, you'd be almost certain that it is because it's against their own team."

I'm still a bit iffy on that. I think I'd rather just leave it the way I handle it at the moment. I mean.. I have only done one game with neutral AR's, (which means I've done 6 with non-neutral AR's) and this is the only weird/suspect incident I've come across so far.

I didn't bring up my example in the education session, but I ran lines in the city's premier league and spoke about it before our games, and it was a general agreement with how I handled the situation, but then again that's from only hearing my description of the event.
In hindsight, I think it was a damned if I did, damned if I didn't. But I'm still quite adamant in my belief that the non-neutral AR on that game had flagged offside and then tried to retract that once he realised that there was possibly going to be a penalty for his side if the call wasn't offside.
 
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