RefSix

Don't break the team pen moment

#1
So, a testy game, 8 yellow cards, loads of subplots, one group argument between players, and we're into added time at 1-1.
I've got two good ARs, AR2 is only 17 but well trained already.

Yellow is heading into the box directly in front of AR2 8 yards from the goal line. I'm 3m outside the middle of the D.
Yellow gets tripped in the last yard before the box, then just in the box there's more of a tangle and he and the blue defender go down.
I really quickly blow and run and point at the point of the foul just outside the box. I'm screaming free kick.
I get there to take control, look round at AR2 who is walking across the corner flag towards his pen position - 6 yellows are now screaming at me to give a penalty.
I give AR2 a look and he goes back to the touchline. I then go over and have the whisper with him and tell him I'm giving the foul outside the box. He says he thinks it was inside. I say no, I'm clear on this, I've clearly signalled, I've got the view - I've got the angle on the penalty box line - it's my call all day long.

Anyway, game ends 1-1 and I've every yellow player, all the coaches one by one an then a stream of fans, all accusing me of bias or incompetence - after what was actually a pretty good game from me! I even had another advantage yellow.

I AR a lot and this was a learning for me as well. Whatever the F you do, if your ref is signalling for a free kick outside the box, the last thing you do is signal a penalty by walking and telling the players you think it's a penalty!
 

RobOda

RefChat Addict
#4
I get there to take control, look round at AR2 who is walking across the corner flag towards his pen position - 6 yellows are now screaming at me to give a penalty.
I give AR2 a look and he goes back to the touchline. I then go over and have the whisper with him and tell him I'm giving the foul outside the box. He says he thinks it was inside.
Wait, he didn't go to the corner flag? He went beyond it to the box position?

If so, that's a bit more than an oops!
 

one

RefChat Addict
#5
Did he verbally tell players he thinks its a pen? If Not, and assuming there was no pre-match instructions for this specific situation, TBH I don't see too much wrong with what he did. Its just one of those tough situations you have use your decision selling skills.

BTW, for in/out decisions,Ii tell my AR to take one step inside the field for in, or one step back for out BUT ONLY after I make eye contact. For Pen/No-Pen, similar, hold your position (no running to corner flag). If I make eye contact, nod for pen, shake head for no pen. For clear & obvious error (EVERYONE knows its a pen but me), raise your flag.
 
#6
Did he verbally tell players he thinks its a pen? If Not, and assuming there was no pre-match instructions for this specific situation, TBH I don't see too much wrong with what he did. Its just one of those tough situations you have use your decision selling skills.

BTW, for in/out decisions,Ii tell my AR to take one step inside the field for in, or one step back for out BUT ONLY after I make eye contact. For Pen/No-Pen, similar, hold your position (no running to corner flag). If I make eye contact, nod for pen, shake head for no pen. For clear & obvious error (EVERYONE knows its a pen but me), raise your flag.
Yes, I can’t remember exactly what he said, but unfortunately there were words and the walk.

We are taught here to help the referee by turning the body for inside/outside the box - when a player is entering the box PARALLEL to the goal line, where the AR has a clear view.

This incident was at the side of the box, so the AR was a little closer, but ref has the better angle to view the line.

I’ve learnt before - the hard way - that as an AR it’s important to give the ref information. But here the cross signal cost us a lot of match control.

As an AR if your ref makes a strong decision and takes control, you need to think carefully - has the ref missed something, or is wrong in law... OK definite need to get involved...
 
#7
I suppose the key question here is what did you ask for in your pre match instructions?
Good question. Didn’t have time for a long pre-match. I had two academy trained young ARs, though this guy was 17. This season I have been adding about ”200% sure on a penalty flag” and as above we are taught to turn the body for in/out.
In this case, a brain fart moment. He was gutted. I thought it was a good reminder about when or not or how to break the team.

This will probably go in next week’s pre match!

... to answer your question I did mention a general ”look at me first about incidents between us... am I making a decision either carry on, adv, foul or have I missed something” but I didn’t cover pen decisions specifically.
 
Last edited:

JamesL

RefChat Addict
#8
Good question. Didn’t have time for a long pre-match. I had two academy trained young ARs, though this guy was 17. This season I have been adding about ”200% sure on a penalty flag” and as above we are taught to turn the body for in/out.
In this case, a brain fart moment. He was gutted. I thought it was a good reminder about when or not or how to break the team.

This will probably go in next week’s pre match!

... to answer your question I did mention a general ”look at my first about incidents between us... am I making a decision either carry on, adv, foul or have I missed something” but I didn’t cover pen decisions specifically.
I always cover pens. Even in a short brief with ARs I have worked with. They are such an emotive KMI for the game everyone needs to be on the same page and to get that, whether they are academy trained or not, the referee should cover it.
If I am AR and the ref doesnt cover it, I ask him, to clarify what he wants for penalties.
 

one

RefChat Addict
#10
Yes, I can’t remember exactly what he said, but unfortunately there were words and the walk.

We are taught here to help the referee by turning the body for inside/outside the box - when a player is entering the box PARALLEL to the goal line, where the AR has a clear view.

This incident was at the side of the box, so the AR was a little closer, but ref has the better angle to view the line.

I’ve learnt before - the hard way - that as an AR it’s important to give the ref information. But here the cross signal cost us a lot of match control.

As an AR if your ref makes a strong decision and takes control, you need to think carefully - has the ref missed something, or is wrong in law... OK definite need to get involved...
Good points but the AR may not be on the same page as you and that would have been a job for pre-match. His thoughts may have been IMO R has made a mistake , I should let him know by standard discreet signal.

I can't figure why he made it verbal. Maybe he thought you gave the free kick for the second incident which would have been obvious to everyone that it is inside.

One thing for sure if he is a decent referee, he would use this as a learning experience, as have you and the rest of us whom you shared it with :)
 

Big Cat

RefChat Addict
#12
Keep it simple!! Mindful of my inferior experience WRT working as a team, it's no surprise that I have an opinion anyway!
Not once have I seen fancy discreet signalling work and it seems to a solution to a problem that shouldn't exist. Every ref that has given me complicated pre-match has readily broken whatever protocol they decreed as soon as a ball is kicked
I want my ARs to be bang on... WRT ball out-of-play and I'm following them in their half regardless. If they don't know, the flag stays low and I'm giving it. For penalties, I want them to be near enough certain. On that basis that they're qualified referees, i trust them implicitly based on the level of certainty I've asked for and will give the penalty even if I think they may be wrong. It really doesn't have to be all that complicated IMO
 

markref

Well-Known Member
#13
My instructions were always basically "Wait. Get eye contact. See what I'm doing. If I'm making a definite decision then go with it. If I'm just looking at you then it means I'm not sure and in that case step in. If I've made a decision then don't go the other way."

Going the other way to a definite decision like this is throwing the Referee under the bus and jumping after him! The team will suffer because the teams see one of the officials is wrong and it's obviously the one whose decision is against my team! Both teams will have a problem with the decision, however it ends. As One says, by all means make a discreet signal that you think it was in, but telling everyone is stupid. If it's discreet you could go over and talk and then potentially change your mind - as if you thought it was out but he was sure it was in and he was better placed. This makes everyone aware there is disagreement and there will never be a winner.

BTW, for in/out decisions,Ii tell my AR to take one step inside the field for in, or one step back for out BUT ONLY after I make eye contact. For Pen/No-Pen, similar, hold your position (no running to corner flag). If I make eye contact, nod for pen, shake head for no pen. For clear & obvious error (EVERYONE knows its a pen but me), raise your flag.
I used to do the same except say take a small step towards the goal line for a pen, a step away for a free kick.
 

RustyRef

Administrator
Staff member
#14
Unless it is a very small pitch it is almost impossible for an assistant to rule in or out of penalty area when it is at the side rather than edge. Unless he has stayed wide and not come off his diagonal the referee will almost always have a better angle to make that decision, so the AR should only be coming in if the referee is boring holes in his head pleading for help.
 

one

RefChat Addict
#15
It all depends on the pitch and line markings. On most artificial fields , it quite easy to tel in/out from a distance even on a right angle.
 

Big Cat

RefChat Addict
#16
I'm not sure that I understand the OP because it sounds like everything happened within the PA
For ball in/out of play inc. CKs, my preference is for the AR to always have first dibs
For KMIs like PKs, the R is in the box seat and the AR should wait (even if certain) to see what the R does
I think this method of knowing who is the 'pilot in command' and 'first officer', is the best way of avoiding conflicting signals. The R waits for the PIC for ball in/out and the AR waits for the PIC for KMIs. No need for Masonic signals ;)
 

GraemeS

RefChat Addict
#17
I'm not sure that I understand the OP because it sounds like everything happened within the PA
For ball in/out of play inc. CKs, my preference is for the AR to always have first dibs
For KMIs like PKs, the R is in the box seat and the AR should wait (even if certain) to see what the R does
I think this method of knowing who is the 'pilot in command' and 'first officer', is the best way of avoiding conflicting signals. The R waits for the PIC for ball in/out and the AR waits for the PIC for KMIs. No need for Masonic signals ;)
Fair point.

So once the AR's waited for the referee's decision and wants to flag in support of that decision, can you clarify for me what signal he should be making for 1. a penalty kick and 2. an attacking FK just outside the box?
 
#18
Fair point.

So once the AR's waited for the referee's decision and wants to flag in support of that decision, can you clarify for me what signal he should be making for 1. a penalty kick and 2. an attacking FK just outside the box?
Per the magic book the answer is that for a PK the AR walks towards the corner flag and for a FK walks towards the halfway line. Of course, many refs want something else. (The old USSF guidance was that the AR should hold the flag across his waist to signal it is a PK ("the fig leaf")--I think many refs here still ask for that.)
 

Big Cat

RefChat Addict
#19
Fair point.

So once the AR's waited for the referee's decision and wants to flag in support of that decision, can you clarify for me what signal he should be making for 1. a penalty kick and 2. an attacking FK just outside the box?
My methodology hasn't really got past first base yet. I'll get back to you in a few years once I've got some more miles on the clock
 
#20
I'm not sure that I understand the OP because it sounds like everything happened within the PA
For ball in/out of play inc. CKs, my preference is for the AR to always have first dibs
For KMIs like PKs, the R is in the box seat and the AR should wait (even if certain) to see what the R does
I think this method of knowing who is the 'pilot in command' and 'first officer', is the best way of avoiding conflicting signals. The R waits for the PIC for ball in/out and the AR waits for the PIC for KMIs. No need for Masonic signals ;)
Yeah, you didn’t follow;

Also @one discreet, the AR managed to walk about 10 yards and nearly made it to the place where the box meets goal line, while I’m standing over the DFK just outside the box! It was not subtle;)
 
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