A&H

Heads it onto his hand

L

LancsReferee

New Member
Situation: high ball dropping in centre circle - defender jumps to head it clear and, in doing so, heads it onto his own upraised hand. All force removed from the headed ball, it drops at his feet and he moves forwards. I blow up and award a free kick against him, instinct telling me he's gained an unfair advantage from the ball-to-hand contact, which I sell to him, but he's miffed. In my mind, I'm already querying this though and check the app on my phone at half-time to find Law 12 states (re handball):

Except for the above offences, it is not an offence if the ball touches a player’s hand/arm:
  • directly from the player’s own head or body (including the foot)

This is exactly what happened: he unintentionally headed to ball onto his own hand in the action of jumping to clear the ball and so I was wrong to blow up. Tell me I'm reading this correctly. Also, what would you guys give as a succinct narrative with this if you were allowing play to continue (as I believe I should have done) as the opposition see the 'handball' and are obviously shouting for it?
 
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LancsReferee said:
Situation: high ball dropping in centre circle - defender jumps to head it clear and, in doing so, heads it onto his own upraised hand. All force removed from the headed ball, it drops at his feet and he moves forwards. I blow up and award a free kick against him, instinct telling me he's gained an unfair advantage from the ball-to-hand contact, which I sell to him, but he's miffed. In my mind, I'm already querying this though and check the app on my phone at half-time to find Law 12 states (re handball):

Except for the above offences, it is not an offence if the ball touches a player’s hand/arm:
  • directly from the player’s own head or body (including the foot)

This is exactly what happened: he unintentionally headed to ball onto his own hand in the action of jumping to clear the ball and so I was wrong to blow up. Tell me I'm reading this correctly. Also, what would you guys give as a succinct narrative with this if you were allowing play to continue (as I believe I should have done) as the opposition see the 'handball' and are obviously shouting for it?
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That part of the law only applies if it is not one of those above offences, among which is

"touches the ball with their hand/arm when:
  • the hand/arm has made their body unnaturally bigger
  • the hand/arm is above/beyond their shoulder level"
 
Okay - should've pasted the previous bit in the Law:

It is an offence if a player:
  • deliberately touches the ball with their hand/arm, including moving the hand/arm towards the ball
  • scores in the opponents’ goal directly from their hand/arm, even if accidental, including by the goalkeeper
  • after the ball has touched their or a team-mate’s hand/arm, even if accidental, immediately:
    • scores in the opponents’ goal
    • creates a goal-scoring opportunity
  • touches the ball with their hand/arm when:
    • the hand/arm has made their body unnaturally bigger
    • the hand/arm is above/beyond their shoulder level (unless the player deliberately plays the ball which then touches their hand/arm)
The last part in bold is what happened - his hand was above his head as he jumped and headed the ball onto the hand, so he's deliberately playing it (with his head) and it strikes the hand (which is above shoulder level). So no offence, right?
 
LancsReferee said:
Okay - should've pasted the previous bit in the Law:

It is an offence if a player:
  • deliberately touches the ball with their hand/arm, including moving the hand/arm towards the ball
  • scores in the opponents’ goal directly from their hand/arm, even if accidental, including by the goalkeeper
  • after the ball has touched their or a team-mate’s hand/arm, even if accidental, immediately:
    • scores in the opponents’ goal
    • creates a goal-scoring opportunity
  • touches the ball with their hand/arm when:
    • the hand/arm has made their body unnaturally bigger
    • the hand/arm is above/beyond their shoulder level (unless the player deliberately plays the ball which then touches their hand/arm)
The last part in bold is what happened - his hand was above his head as he jumped and headed the ball onto the hand, so he's deliberately playing it (with his head) and it strikes the hand (which is above shoulder level). So no offence, right?
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No. That is an offence. The not offences are considered after the is an offences are. So the first list is an offence.
And the second list is except for the above offences.

This confused me. Initially as it says played by a player who is close in both lists.. However it should be read sequentially, the full section to understand its intent.

So here we have a player who has played the ball even though they were close, but their arm was raised above their shoulder. Therefore, it is an offence..
 
You made the right decision.
If he'd done the same thing in his opponent's penalty area and then blasted the ball into the net - would you be allowing the goal to stand?
 
Kes said:
You made the right decision.
If he'd done the same thing in his opponent's penalty area and then blasted the ball into the net - would you be allowing the goal to stand?
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Is that intended as a question to clarify the initial point or a separate question? The accidental attacking handball clause means that the answer to the question you've posed doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the question the OP has asked - I worry that you're adding confusion by bringing that up?
 
GraemeS said:
Is that intended as a question to clarify the initial point or a separate question? The accidental attacking handball clause means that the answer to the question you've posed doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the question the OP has asked - I worry that you're adding confusion by bringing that up?
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I see your scenario as an accidental contact so play on BUT:

morally is this right?

the the LOTG is this right?

Also if this was in the PA would you give a penalty?

As a referee i can can the logic in attackers being penalised for accidental handball in the penalty area only even if this is not law.

Accidental handball for defenders i am struggling with.

I've asked for a session about handball from the RDO.
 
Kent Ref said:
I see your scenario as an accidental contact so play on BUT:

morally is this right?

the the LOTG is this right?

Also if this was in the PA would you give a penalty?

As a referee i can can the logic in attackers being penalised for accidental handball in the penalty area only even if this is not law.

Accidental handball for defenders i am struggling with.

I've asked for a session about handball from the RDO.
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LOTG now have this as a punishable handball. If the arm is raised above the shoulder it is an offence even if played directly from a player/opponent who is close.
Whether we agree on the morality of it or not is another debate, however, the law could not be clearer if it tried. (Well it probably could be, but again, another debate)
 
Kes said:
You made the right decision.
If he'd done the same thing in his opponent's penalty area and then blasted the ball into the net - would you be allowing the goal to stand?
Click to expand...

I agree he made the right decision but I wouldn't compare it to the same scenario happening in the opposition box as the position of the hand/arm would be irrelevant if he's scored straight after the contact.
 
QuaverRef said:
I agree he made the right decision but I wouldn't compare it to the same scenario happening in the opposition box as the position of the hand/arm would be irrelevant if he's scored straight after the contact.
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True.

I suppose my point was, that in both instances, you'd have players shouting "handball ref" and my instinct on those occasions is nearly always to give the FK against. I like my game simple. :D
 
I am sorry but I strongly disagree with the general opinion here. If a player deliberately plays the ball which then hits their own hand (which is above shoulder level), it is NOT a handling offence.

The line in the Laws that counts is one single bullet point...under the list of things that are offences it says it is an offence if a player:

touches the ball with their hand/arm when:
  • the hand/arm is above/beyond their shoulder level (unless the player deliberately plays the ball which then touches their hand/arm)
This can have no other meaning but that a player deliberately playing the ball onto their own raised arm is an exemption from the offence. It still means that if the ball is played onto their raised arm by another player, or if the player plays it onto a hand/arm not above shoulder level that unnaturally makes the body bigger then it IS an offence....but the raised arm is an exception. Otherwise the words from"unless" have no meaning at all.
 
Dan56 said:
I am sorry but I strongly disagree with the general opinion here. If a player deliberately plays the ball which then hits their own hand (which is above shoulder level), it is NOT a handling offence.

The line in the Laws that counts is one single bullet point...under the list of things that are offences it says it is an offence if a player:

touches the ball with their hand/arm when:
  • the hand/arm is above/beyond their shoulder level (unless the player deliberately plays the ball which then touches their hand/arm)
This can have no other meaning but that a player deliberately playing the ball onto their own raised arm is an exemption from the offence. It still means that if the ball is played onto their raised arm by another player, or if the player plays it onto a hand/arm not above shoulder level that unnaturally makes the body bigger then it IS an offence....but the raised arm is an exception. Otherwise the words from"unless" have no meaning at all.
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TBH I am now re-reading this again - for the millionth time - and I feel a yawning chasm has opened up beneath me.

@JamesL voice of reason - re-read the OP - this incident is about a ball coming from the player - not another player - onto the player's arm above the shoulder. It's not an offence, right?
 
santa sangria said:
TBH I am now re-reading this again - for the millionth time - and I feel a yawning chasm has opened up beneath me.

@JamesL voice of reason - re-read the OP - this incident is about a ball coming from the player - not another player - onto the player's arm above the shoulder. It's not an offence, right?
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Yes it is, because the arm is extended above the shoulder.
The important bit states, except for the above offences (which now has a stupid diagram in the way). So, as the hand or arm or are above the shoulder the it is not an offence if played directly from a players own head or body is irrelevant as the arm is above the shoulder.
 
JamesL said:
Yes it is, because the arm is extended above the shoulder.
The important bit states, except for the above offences (which now has a stupid diagram in the way). So, as the hand or arm or are above the shoulder the it is not an offence if played directly from a players own head or body is irrelevant as the arm is above the shoulder.
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This is how I have been understanding it previously.
But @Dan56 is correct as I read it. It's clear that own deliberate play of the ball to own hand above the shoulder is not an offence.
Yes, it contradicts the later point.
But, as Dan says, why both to have the "..unless" line unless it was a specific bit of guidance.

...It is unfortunate that it doesn't say (unless the player deliberately plays the ball which then touches their hand/arm, which is above/beyond their shoulder level)
 
santa sangria said:
This is how I have been understanding it previously.
But @Dan56 is correct as I read it. It's clear that own deliberate play of the ball to own hand above the shoulder is not an offence.
Yes, it contradicts the later point.
But, as Dan says, why both to have the "..unless" line unless it was a specific bit of guidance.

...It is unfortunate that it doesn't say (unless the player deliberately plays the ball which then touches their hand/arm, which is above/beyond their shoulder level)
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Blooming heck. This new handball law doesn't half get folk in a swizzle.
I think you are right.
Is an offence....
the hand/arm is above/beyond their shoulder level (unless the player
deliberately plays the ball which then touches their hand/arm).
I get confused with the unnaturally bigger bit and the player who is close bit..

I definitely need to keep working on my understanding of these handball changes, they are really simple but then so complex 🙉
 
JamesL said:
Blooming heck. This new handball law doesn't half get folk in a swizzle.
I think you are right.
Is an offence....
the hand/arm is above/beyond their shoulder level (unless the player
deliberately plays the ball which then touches their hand/arm).
I get confused with the unnaturally bigger bit and the player who is close bit..

I definitely need to keep working on my understanding of these handball changes, they are really simple but then so complex 🙉
Click to expand...
But hey, let's look on the bright side, er... at least we are now united in this realisation!

Now if anyone asks you about an old handball off the player's own foot with the hand above their shoulder, just say: "ah, but they were also making themselves unnaturally bigger!"
 
I think we are meant to realise that there are two things that generally lead to a handball offence:

1. Making yourself unnaturally bigger
2. Hand/arm raised above shoulder

Since it goes to the trouble of mentioning both, it is clear that in Law they are separate (perhaps think of number 2 as making yourself unnaturally taller)

The Law then saws that number 1 is always an offence, even if the ball comes from a player who is close or (because it is not mentioned as an exception) off the player's own body.

Number 2 is exactly the same from a player who is close, but with the exception of a ball deliberately played by the player themself.

So, we have been taught, ignore anything except :

is it a deliberate hand to ball....handball.
Is it accidental but leads to an immediate goal...handball
Is the player making themself bigger ...handball.
Is the player raising arms....handball (except if they have just played it themself)

Anything else...no offence.
 
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