Heads or tails
- Thread starter one
- Start date
Not really sure although LOTG specifically says ‘... the toss of a coin’. It probably doesn’t look great either as, other than the captains, no one will know what’s going on and it might look like you’ve forgotten the coin and are making something up and we know how spectators, coaches and players can try and pick up on things like this to use it against you (even though you haven’t forgotten anything, it just appears so)
Ciley Myrus
RefChat Addict
I think in life, not just refereeing, if we are changing something from the norm, we should aim to do so for a given benefit
Otherwise, changing it, we are no better off so what was the point
The energy, thought process, application, cost, etc could have been put to an idea which does have a benefit, i,e, make things clearer, simplier, cheaper, faster etc
imo this suggestion does not do that and would just make you seem different from the start,
When afterall, we want recognised or judged on our ability
I don't think anyone will be tossing coins or pressing anything this side of September or even further into next year!!!
one
RefChat Addict
So I'm playing devil's advocate here (as was in the OP)
The app is the face of a coin. Tap it once and it looks tossed and starts spinning fast. Captain Calls it and you tap it again and stops spinning. So in effect you are tossing an electronic coin.
The benefit, you don't have to carry a coin. One less thing to worry about.
Taking notes/records on Smart watch apps is becoming more frequent now. May not be everyone's cup of tea but it doesn't take too long for players to figure out you are using technology to replace the old fashion way.
The app is the face of a coin. Tap it once and it looks tossed and starts spinning fast. Captain Calls it and you tap it again and stops spinning. So in effect you are tossing an electronic coin.
The benefit, you don't have to carry a coin. One less thing to worry about.
Taking notes/records on Smart watch apps is becoming more frequent now. May not be everyone's cup of tea but it doesn't take too long for players to figure out you are using technology to replace the old fashion way.
Last edited:
I get what you're saying and the principle is reasonable - the coin toss is only an arbitrary decision maker anyway.
I also like the benefit of not having to remember a coin (ref uniforms really SHOULD have a coin pocket as I find they never sit right whatever I do)
It falls into what seems reasonable but will probably never be adopted. E.g. I would quite like to use the spray foam for free kicks but it is not allowed at my level !
I also like the benefit of not having to remember a coin (ref uniforms really SHOULD have a coin pocket as I find they never sit right whatever I do)
It falls into what seems reasonable but will probably never be adopted. E.g. I would quite like to use the spray foam for free kicks but it is not allowed at my level !
Ciley Myrus
RefChat Addict
electronic is open to manipulation
And, I see your losing coin and raise you, watch battery dying, wet screen?
not saying things never need to progress and adapt
not convinced the coin toss needs any modifying,
as per each to own
And, I see your losing coin and raise you, watch battery dying, wet screen?
not saying things never need to progress and adapt
not convinced the coin toss needs any modifying,
as per each to own
one
RefChat Addict
Surly you didn't come to the poker table with a sundial on your wrist. Using those two as reasons means throwing out any time piece invented in the last couple of centuries or so.
I am with tradition and all that but technology is finding its way into the game a lot faster than many of us would like.
I would be all for it if it was clearly allowed by LOTG and be willing to turn a blind eye to it now as a trivial matter if I see it when assessing.
Ciley Myrus
RefChat Addict
ok,how about this.....from a reality perspective...
Running huge risk of a perceived superiority or greater ability than the referee in question, use the screen toss, miss the red card after two mins, you will get
" uses a watch instead of a coin but misses our players head being decapitated"
Players dont like surprises and at grass roots, certainly where I am, we preach keeping things simple.
i did add in tho, each to own.
it did remind me of a prematch talk i heard from a ref keeping the match on his watch app, ok we can debate who else writes what and when, but to say
" both of you write please in case I feck it up with the watch"..
Tells me that person should not be, or is not comfortable, or confident, using the watch.
Had he kept things simple however...
It all went downhill for me when they banned Rock Paper Scissors. 
It’s a trivial matter is the coin toss and not something that affects a game one iota. More ceremonial than anything that really matters.
It’s a trivial matter is the coin toss and not something that affects a game one iota. More ceremonial than anything that really matters.
Ciley Myrus
RefChat Addict
It all went downhill for me when they banned Rock Paper Scissors.
well, you say that.....few seasons ago, I messed up, And it mattered!
RefIADad
RefChat Addict
Personally, I don't think it's a big deal as long as you show the captains what you are doing and they understand what the app does. If they understand that it's a random chance, it shouldn't be a big issue.
That second part is the big issue. I often use a black and yellow Othello-style flip coin. More often than not, I'll show the captains the coin and then ask the visiting captain "black or yellow", then still get "heads" or "tails" for the call. I smile and say, "I can't give you heads or tails - I just have black and yellow". (I also ask for the captain's call before I flip the coin so I can confirm his call before flipping - one less area of confusion.) In other words, I think it's just easier to go along with what the captains (and the game) expect. The coin toss is recognized the world over, so I think it's just easier to not upset the apple cart when doing that. Whether it's with a quarter, a colored disc, or with a custom referee coin, the captains will likely expect a coin toss.
As for the smartwatch apps, I tried a couple and just didn't like them. There's nothing at all wrong with using it if you are comfortable using it. I'm normally a pretty progressive person when it comes to tech, but I've gone back to using a paper planner and use a reusable game card to write my game information. It actually takes me less time to write info down than mess with a watch because I have chunky fingers and seem to overshoot the numbers when I'm scrolling through them.
Last edited:
What if one of the captains is a computer expert? Then, he'll know that an app can't produce a truly random result.
Ciley Myrus
RefChat Addict
I covered that. No matter what importance we place on the coin toss, its not for us to judge, the team get that accolade
And if they rank it uber important, its not impossible they could consider it manipulable
draws attention to us also.
bit like if you go to a pub gig and the opens his case and brings out Brian Mays gutair.
Perception wise, am now expecting to hear it played ala May,
Last edited:
Think of it this way, rather than if it allowed by the LOTG
You do e-toss, Captain mentions it to his players. They think it slightly unusual but say nothing at the time. You have a bad performance in their eyes, this can suddenly become a bigger thing - player mention that your are a "toll" on social media but alos mentions about the e-toss. The blazers get involved = you could be charged with failing to follow the LOTG yourself. Where the charge is proven or not, you get know to the powers that be for the wrong reasons. This means no finals, increased hinderence in promotion.
Is it strictly worth in for a 2p coin?
Think I'll be blunt here, absolutely no need for an electronic coin toss.
If worried about losing the coin, use a 2p and/or give to your assistant to look after (if operating with assistants)
Or like me, you might be rubbish at tossing a coin. I've been a referee for over 10 years and have progressed up the ranks, still pants at tossing a coin. No shame in admitting it. What do I do instead? Coin in my pocket. Grab it out with one hand, place it on the top of my other with it being covered. Ask the home captain, heads or tails, show the coin, then figure out ends/kick off. (a) avoids the embarrassment of a rubbish coin toss - which certainly doesn't create the best first impression and puts you on the back foot (remember Kevin Friend getting picked up in The FA Cup Final? (here)); (b) avoids the captain tossing and it landing on the floor / the debate whether a referee should do the coin toss as a power move blah blah blah
If worried about losing the coin, use a 2p and/or give to your assistant to look after (if operating with assistants)
Or like me, you might be rubbish at tossing a coin. I've been a referee for over 10 years and have progressed up the ranks, still pants at tossing a coin. No shame in admitting it. What do I do instead? Coin in my pocket. Grab it out with one hand, place it on the top of my other with it being covered. Ask the home captain, heads or tails, show the coin, then figure out ends/kick off. (a) avoids the embarrassment of a rubbish coin toss - which certainly doesn't create the best first impression and puts you on the back foot (remember Kevin Friend getting picked up in The FA Cup Final? (here)); (b) avoids the captain tossing and it landing on the floor / the debate whether a referee should do the coin toss as a power move blah blah blah
socal lurker
RefChat Addict
Most ref shorts in the US have a coin pocket on the inside of the shorts waistband--but I hate it.
I keep a coin in mini wallet that came from a wallet. (one of those things designed to hold a drivers license and credit card so you don't carry the full wallet. That goes in a shirt pocket, and with the mini-wallet, it doesn't bounce around or fall out. (Much better than the envelope I used to use the same way.)
ChasObserverRefDeveloper
Regular Contributor
This is exactly what we teach new referees to do, as it keeps it simple, avoids a muddy coin or a clash of heads with the captain(s), and the referee controls the process. Simples!
Does he know how you've programmed it? If not, it's as good as random anyway as far as the captains are concerned.
I once assisted for a referee who asked me for heads or tails pre-match in the changing room. Confused, I said heads - so he wrote an "H" on the palm of his left hand. Went out, did all our pre-match chat and handshakes (right handed obviously!) and then he asked the away captain for his call. Captain went tails, and was shown the H and told he'd lost the toss - accepted it with no complaints and they got on with the game. If you can sell that as random, I don't see how you'd have any problems with an app that shows a nice graphic of a spinning coin before displaying a result.
Sounds like a sensible precaution for a referee who's trying something new that might end up working better for him? Would you rather he just assumed it would work smoothly and ended up without a record of what had happened?