RefSix

JAM ITA penalty mess

QuaverRef

I used to be indecisive but now i'm not so sure
#1
Penalty awarded through VAR for Italy.

Jamaica keeper saves penalty and corner awarded. However, before it’s taken, referee blows the whistle and makes the VAR signal again and awards another penalty (retake) for the keeper coming off their line, yellow card then follows for the keeper.

Interestingly, Italy score the retake but VAR/ref fail to highlight 3 Italian players in the box before it’s taken. If they are going to use VAR for decisions like that, at least be consistent
 
#2
The use of VAR to be very precise on GKs was established in the U20WC. I'm presumably biased as a former GK, but if the AR can't tell the GK left early, that seems the epitome of trifling. And when we compound it with the decision a couple of years ago that it is USB for a GK to come off early, we have entered the theatre of the absurd--it is unsporting for a GK to mistime by inches?!?!?

I agree on the absurdity of encroachment. It's USB for the GK to make a mistake, but not for attackers to be well into the PA at the moment of the kick? And we're also going to be super picky about the GK, but not pay too much attention to the attacker unless the ball comes back out?
 

Big Cat

RefChat Addict
#3
Penalty awarded through VAR for Italy.

Jamaica keeper saves penalty and corner awarded. However, before it’s taken, referee blows the whistle and makes the VAR signal again and awards another penalty (retake) for the keeper coming off their line, yellow card then follows for the keeper.

Interestingly, Italy score the retake but VAR/ref fail to highlight 3 Italian players in the box before it’s taken. If they are going to use VAR for decisions like that, at least be consistent
We have one page being sellotaped back into the book (GK off the line), yet another page remains crumpled up (encroachment). And VAR ratifies that absurdity ffs
 
#5
The goal line is not that wide and goalkeepers are not even allowed to stand behind the goal line; I guess GKs have to practice tightrope walking.
 

Sheffields Finest

Maybe I'm foolish, maybe I'm blind!
#6
This could get messy this season if the VARs are going to watch any discrepancies to the minute degree, big games and goals/ saves will be ruined as a spectacle. Well, now the VAR cat is out of the bag it’s going to get worse!
 

zarathustra

RefChat Addict
#7
But it's these sorts of things people have been complaining about for years and years and years that has led us to VAR and every tiny decision or action being reviewed no matter how minute or trifling.

How many times have we seen Sean Dyche giving it the big one because Burnley haven't had a penalty in however many games.

Or players whinging because a goal shouldn't have counted because the attackers toe was offside, or should have counted because the attackers toe wasn't offside.

People want perfect match officials who never make mistakes, that is impossible so they've done the next best thing, introduced a system where any potential mistakes are caught and the referee is then under immense pressure to agree with VAR.
 

QuaverRef

I used to be indecisive but now i'm not so sure
#8
But it's these sorts of things people have been complaining about for years and years and years that has led us to VAR and every tiny decision or action being reviewed no matter how minute or trifling.

How many times have we seen Sean Dyche giving it the big one because Burnley haven't had a penalty in however many games.

Or players whinging because a goal shouldn't have counted because the attackers toe was offside, or should have counted because the attackers toe wasn't offside.

People want perfect match officials who never make mistakes, that is impossible so they've done the next best thing, introduced a system where any potential mistakes are caught and the referee is then under immense pressure to agree with VAR.
And people saying it ruins the excitement of scoring a goal, saving a penalty etc are talking rubbish. Did anyone see a silent crowd during the World Cup/Carabao Cup etc after a goal was scored because they were worried about a VAR review?
 

Big Cat

RefChat Addict
#9
And people saying it ruins the excitement of scoring a goal, saving a penalty etc are talking rubbish. Did anyone see a silent crowd during the World Cup/Carabao Cup etc after a goal was scored because they were worried about a VAR review?
That will definitely be me then. From what I've seen of the WWC, VAR has taken centre stage and lengthy post-goal reviews are only part of the farce. Anyway, not sure I have the energy to enter into a protracted debate and I'll stop short of inappropriately claiming that you're talking rubbish
 
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zarathustra

RefChat Addict
#10
And people saying it ruins the excitement of scoring a goal, saving a penalty etc are talking rubbish. Did anyone see a silent crowd during the World Cup/Carabao Cup etc after a goal was scored because they were worried about a VAR review?
No, but I think VAR is a good thing, but the implementation leaves a lot to be desired.

But as with all things it will take time for the links to be ironed out. A few seasons an people will wonder what they were worried about.
 
#11
But as with all things it will take time for the links to be ironed out. A few seasons an people will wonder what they were worried about.
Wishful thinking. The US NFL has had it for what, 20 years? And it still generates conflict and still generates questions about abolishing it—one of the high profile NFL coaches suggested this year that it should be abolished. And American football, with its stops and starts is a much better platform for VR than soccer.

Soccer is using VR to review subjective decisions on a limited basis. As long as that is the case, we can be guaranteed of several things. People will still disagree with the judgment after VR. Wherever the line is drawn on what can be reviewed, fans will be aggrieved that something else that might have helped their team wasn’t reviewed and outraged at the delay caused by a review that went against them. Just as OS will never be without controversy, neither will VR.
 

zarathustra

RefChat Addict
#12
Wishful thinking. The US NFL has had it for what, 20 years? And it still generates conflict and still generates questions about abolishing it—one of the high profile NFL coaches suggested this year that it should be abolished. And American football, with its stops and starts is a much better platform for VR than soccer.

Soccer is using VR to review subjective decisions on a limited basis. As long as that is the case, we can be guaranteed of several things. People will still disagree with the judgment after VR. Wherever the line is drawn on what can be reviewed, fans will be aggrieved that something else that might have helped their team wasn’t reviewed and outraged at the delay caused by a review that went against them. Just as OS will never be without controversy, neither will VR.
But the VAR process in rugby works very well without any controversy
 

es1

RefChat Addict
#13
And people saying it ruins the excitement of scoring a goal, saving a penalty etc are talking rubbish. Did anyone see a silent crowd during the World Cup/Carabao Cup etc after a goal was scored because they were worried about a VAR review?
Having been to 3 cup finals with VAR and several champions league games my reaction to goals has 100% changed, and I don't like it.

VAR as an idea, great

VAR as it's implemented at the moment, awful
 

QuaverRef

I used to be indecisive but now i'm not so sure
#14
How do people actually suggest the VAR process is sped up without referees gaining and experience and confidence in using the technology? Controversial decisions aside, decisions which are black and white still need a review process
 

QuaverRef

I used to be indecisive but now i'm not so sure
#16
Having been to 3 cup finals with VAR and several champions league games my reaction to goals has 100% changed, and I don't like it.

VAR as an idea, great

VAR as it's implemented at the moment, awful
In what way? Did everyone just not celebrate, or did you continue to celebrate with VAR being in the back of your mind?
 

es1

RefChat Addict
#17
In what way? Did everyone just not celebrate, or did you continue to celebrate with VAR being in the back of your mind?
I didn't really celebrate Silvas opening goal in the FA cup final, similar with aguero last year in the league cup final. The first thing I'm doing is looking to the AR to see there's a delayed flag and then to the ref/big screen to see if they're initiating a review.

Same at spurs in the champions league 2nd leg, typically I lost my mind for the '5th' goal and have never been so gutted.

It's definitely not just me I should add, plenty of fans making similar comments on city forums.
 

RustyRef

Administrator
Staff member
#18
But the VAR process in rugby works very well without any controversy
The difference there, as with cricket and tennis, is the decisions are more factual than subjective. Was the ball grounded to give a try, was a pass forward, was there a knock on, etc. There are some factual decisions in football, like offside and whether a foul occurred inside or outside the area, but most like was it a handball, was it a trip, etc, are much more subjective and in the opinion of the referee.

All that said, I still think VAR is the right thing for the game, they just need to try and sort out some of the inconsistencies.
 

Goldfish

Well-Known Member
#19
Hi
For many years there has been umpteen situations of complaint about decisions being missed and changing games. Lampard's no goal v Germany, Thierry Henry handball. Mendes no goal at Old Trfford are just a few.
So the game succumbed to pressure to introduce technology like most if not all other sports. VAR is in its infancy and I have no doubt it will be changed in the years ahead.
On this movement by the GK here there is no AR in the regular penalty position. She is stood at the corner flag so one would assume that the kick decisions are being monitored by technology? The fact is that the GK clearly moved off the line in a blatant way. Maybe without technology it might have been ignored as it has been for a long time.
Interestingly there has been little if any complaints about the decisions themselves, just about how they got to the decision. Maybe a few handball calls are questionable yet that is debatable anyway with or without VAR.
In this instance I think that an AR should be in the normal position flagging for encroachment. I flagged one recently and it was retaken immediately not without complaint I might add. The GK was fuming saying he was on the line yet he was three yards off it! GKs will soon get the message that encroachment on a save will get pulled with VAR.
In this instance an AR in the normal position would have picked it up immediately and flagged knowing that technology can back up the decision. Even to show that she got it wrong not to flag! That's a learning point for FIFA in the management of penalties.
There are plenty of other learning points such as management of pulling and pushing at free kicks and corners. Penalty awarded in the Thailand game for pulling down an opponent that probably would have been ignored in the past. Refs have to stop these endless instructions to players with VAR present. A few VAR awarded penalties and it will start to come to an end.
 
#20
I just don't think the AR position matters on whether the GK comes off the line. The AR can see that just as well from the flag as from the PA intersection. I have always though the value of being closer was for scoring or not, where the GK body/hands can present an obstacle--and that is not handled by GLT. (I believe in the u20 WC they did not have GLT and the ARs stayed in the traditional spot--though they were clearly enforcing GK movement with VR there, too.)

I am quite curious the instructions given to ARs on GK movement. So far as I know, there has not been a single one signaled by the AR in the WWC or the u20 WC--though there have been quite a few via VR. Some have been so nit-picky that no human was going to make the call in real time, but some were pretty blatant yet apparently not flagged. It makes me wonder if they have departed from the protocol that the VAR is looking for things that are missed and instead have assigned this one solely to the VAR. If so, that's a pretty big conceptual jump and another step down the slippery slope.

Finally it is interesting that the Chile GK appeared to be off her line on the US missed PK. Certainly there has been history of referees being more stringent on a save than on a pure miss, but that is not actually supported in the Laws. But it appears (small sample) that trifling is being used by the VAR on misses, but not on saves. Law 18 is the only place to justify that distinction. . . .
 
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