Leyton Orient vs Stockport

[Runner Ref]

Ouch, unless I've missed something, that's a long way offside.

AR obviously didn't see the attackers flick on, but referee should be helping him out there

 

[RustyRef]

Agree, referee has to take as much of the blame there.

 

[es1]

A bizarre scenario that was clear to everyone. Really poor reffing.

Looks like he's just missed a pen for orient too

That looks spot on though, arm well out/away from the body

 

[RefereeX]

I think that’s a really tough spot.
I’ve watched it several times and there’s one angle where the ball doesn’t appear to deviate from the flick on at all.
I don’t think it’s a howler, just an unfortunate error in judgement.
But of course social media will suggest it’s the worst decision in history.

Great composure from the ref too to come back from that error and make 2 great handball spots for penalties too!

 

[es1]

I think that’s a really tough spot.
I’ve watched it several times and there’s one angle where the ball doesn’t appear to deviate from the flick on at all.
I don’t think it’s a howler, just an unfortunate error in judgement.
But of course social media will suggest it’s the worst decision in history.

Great composure from the ref too to come back from that error and make 2 great handball spots for penalties too!

Disagree, think it's a really easy spot

 

[Runner Ref]

I think that’s a really tough spot.
I’ve watched it several times and there’s one angle where the ball doesn’t appear to deviate from the flick on at all.
I don’t think it’s a howler, just an unfortunate error in judgement.
But of course social media will suggest it’s the worst decision in history.

Great composure from the ref too to come back from that error and make 2 great handball spots for penalties too!

Ben has got perfect angle to spot it. Really dont think it can be anything other than a howler from him.

Could have blinked at the moment, who knows. But when you have comms, this is stuff you need to see

 

[RefereeX]

Disagree, think it's a really easy spot

Couldn’t disagree more. It’s a very, very feint touch (the trajectory of the ball only deviates the tiniest bit and from one particular angle it doesn’t deviate at all) and if the ref guesses he’s touched it and he hasn’t, it’s just as big a decision the other way round.

We’ll to agree to disagree, because I know I’m not gonna convince you, and you won’t convince me otherwise.

 

[RefereeX]

Ben has got perfect angle to spot it. Really dont think it can be anything other than a howler from him.

Could have blinked at the moment, who knows. But when you have comms, this is stuff you need to see

There’s another camera angle which would also theoretically be the perfect camera angle and from that angle there is zero deviation in the trajectory of the ball.
Clearly it’s an error, and I’m sure Ben will be really annoyed with himself, but worse errors are made regularly by all, they just don’t quite have the same importance.

 

[RustyRef]

Probably down to angles, but I said offside real time. Personally I think there is enough deviation on the ball for at least one of the officials to see the flick on, it just didn't look right and alarm bells should have been ringing.

 

[DavidObs]

Wow really:

Stockport manager Dave Challinor told BBC Radio Manchester:

"Massive kudos to my players for reacting in a positive way to what is the worst decision I have seen in 15 years of management, in what is the biggest game in my managerial career because I've not managed as high as this.

"That [first goal] is an absolute shocker. They're supposed to be the best of our group to be refereeing these games. If that's the best of our group, as players, staff, managers, we're quite right to be concerned.

"I get why there is a scramble to ultimately get robots involved and stop human error, because that can't happen."

Yes, absolutely incorrect decision with the non-offside, but robots to stop human error - does that also involve players, managers etc!

 

[Tealeaf]

Incident is here from 1:16. https://www.skysports.com/football/...-2-2-stockport-league-one-play-off-highlights

As for the criticism, yeah ok whatever. On first view it’s Inconclusive for me - attacker definitely jumps for the header but it isn’t clear if he actually touches it. And some have sympathy for the AR here as the two screen shots show. If there’s no touch then he’s onside as the ball is played in the first. If there’s a flick on, pic 2 then yes offside. Benefit of the doubt as Arsene Wenger lobbied for this week.

It’s only the reverse angle that shows an obvious deviation in slow motion. No chance of spotting that in real time.

 

[DavidObs]

Incident is here from 1:16. https://www.skysports.com/football/...-2-2-stockport-league-one-play-off-highlights

As for the criticism, yeah ok whatever. Inconclusive for me - attacker definitely jumps for the header but it isn’t clear if he actually touches it. And some have sympathy for the AR here as the two screen shots show. If there’s no touch then he’s onside as the ball is played in the first. If there’s a flick on, pic 2 then yes offside. Benefit of the doubt as Arsene Wenger lobbied for this week.


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Unfortunately, there definitely was a touch/deflection & between the Referee & the AR it should have been identified. Perhaps a doubt in real time from each of their own angles, but more ‘there was’, ‘than wasn’t’.

 

[socal lurker]

Even without a touch needs to evaluated as a clear attempt to play the ball. (I’ve only seen stills, somI have no opinion on impact on opponents; not the standard for impacting opponents t is lower on an attempt than a clear action.)

 

[Big Cat]

I have a notion (cemented this year as I've thought about it more) that beyond a certain level, most referees are much of a muchness (and a minority are not good enough with too few of them facing reclassification). To that end, I don't think there's a referee out there who really comes close to what the game demands. Not a single one. It's probably not possible for anyone to be 'good enough'
Either there's pervasive problem with refereeing culture, the rules, the way they're inconsistently interpreted and taught, or the culture of the game and the default behaviour of castigating the officials, but there's a cavernous gap between expectation of how good refs should be and how good they actually are.

Personally, I think all of the above are true and I think blame is shared throughout the game
Nothing will change because the I have no faith in the governance of rules (Laws FFS) and refereeing, but more of an issue is that the culture will never change because it's all driven by the financial success of the game and the American style circus is selling extremely well, so despite noises to the contrary, no change for the better is ever forthcoming. Behaviour in the elite game is getting evermore ridiculous, but it sells so who cares if it's at the expense of a floundering community of referees

 

[RefereeX]

Even without a touch needs to evaluated as a clear attempt to play the ball. (I’ve only seen stills, somI have no opinion on impact on opponents; not the standard for impacting opponents t is lower on an attempt than a clear action.)

Not relevant.
The player who flicked the ball was onside, the player who received it was onside from the initial ball but then offside for the flick on, so if there wasn’t contact, the attempt to play the ball would make no difference

 

[RefereeX]

Talk sport making my brain melt here…
‘Adrian Durham suggested there should have been a conversation between the referee and the AR to agree whether the ball was flicked on and if so, whether he was offside….’

Well thank god we’ve got Adrian Durhams wisdom to help out!

And even then the caller said ‘nope, they didn’t have a conversation, they just gave the goal’

 

[DavidObs]

I have a notion (cemented this year as I've thought about it more) that beyond a certain level, most referees are much of a muchness (and a minority are not good enough with too few of them facing reclassification). To that end, I don't think there's a referee out there who really comes close to what the game demands. Not a single one. It's probably not possible for anyone to be 'good enough'
Either there's pervasive problem with refereeing culture, the rules, the way they're inconsistently interpreted and taught, or the culture of the game and the default behaviour of castigating the officials, but there's a cavernous gap between expectation of how good refs should be and how good they actually are.

Personally, I think all of the above are true and I think blame is shared throughout the game
Nothing will change because the I have no faith in the governance of rules (Laws FFS) and refereeing, but more of an issue is that the culture will never change because it's all driven by the financial success of the game and the American style circus is selling extremely well, so despite noises to the contrary, no change for the better is ever forthcoming. Behaviour in the elite game is getting evermore ridiculous, but it sells so who cares if it's at the expense of a floundering community of referees

I don’t think I agree with that. The very good Referee’s are always likely to shine through & despite what you say, I think there are ‘some’ very good Referee’s in all divisions, though much pressure is on them in the Championship & supersonic pressure in the PL. Having said that, again the very good ones will deal with it.

 

[JamesL]

This sounds identical to what happened at Hillsborough in 2017 v Brighton in the playoff.

That day Marriner and Cann for the right decision

 

[PP62]

Not a huge fan of Refsupportuk but this post from them is crazy!

 

[Big Cat]

I don’t think I agree with that. The very good Referee’s are always likely to shine through & despite what you say, I think there are ‘some’ very good Referee’s in all divisions, though much pressure is on them in the Championship & supersonic pressure in the PL. Having said that, again the very good ones will deal with it.

Everything I've written there is a firm brief of mine
Every referee (I'm talking beyond a certain level) falls short of the standard the rest of the football community expects, although naturally, some do so slightly more often than others. Possibly without significant exception, there's not much to separate referees at a level (beyond a certain level). Moreover, there isn't much difference between the referees at different levels (again, beyond a certain level). There really isn't

It's challenging to communicate my opinions without writing an essay and there's some nuance in what I've written. For example, what football expects from referees is significantly wide of the mark, so the fact we fall well short is not just a function of referees' capability

Anyway, I don't want to get overly invested in the subject and there's a good chance we would agree on some aspects if we were in person. I have respect for your posts, but we can't always agree and when we do, it may just be misunderstanding