Observation 6-5

[boblardo]

First off, I thought the old way of observers hiding was a thing of the past but apparently not as today I was observed and I only realised he was there when I saw his car pull up after the game

Anyway, mostly a good observation although one comment that came up was checking the substitutes equipment, now I get the point and usually do this but the Sunday league I ref on has repeated subs so I do it the first time the player enters the pitch but not the next time etc. The observer basically said they should be checked every time even if they are repeated

 

[lincs22]

@boblardo - he could have been a late appointment to your match, but it is not normal for them not to make themselves known before the match.

And yes, you may think it is petty but the LOTG state you should check the substitutes each and every time. Sorry, not doing it not correctly applying law

 

[Big Cat]

It must be very easy for long-since promoted refs to forget what it's really like at the bottom. Let's not make out that you adhered to every mundane check in the absence of an observer. I 'educate' players on skins and sock tape colour but would rather forego a promotion than enforce it. When i police substitutions to the letter of the law, it's overly officious and not what 'football expects'. So don't make out that it was any different when you were presiding over parks football

 

[JamesL]

@boblardo - he could have been a late appointment to your match, but it is not normal for them not to make themselves known before the match.

And yes, you may think it is petty but the LOTG state you should check the substitutes each and every time. Sorry, not doing it not correctly applying law

I was of the understanding that not making yourself known made the observation null and void.

 

[RustyRef]

It must be very easy for long-since promoted refs to forget what it's really like at the bottom. Let's not make out that you adhered to every mundane check in the absence of an observer. I 'educate' players on skins and sock tape colour but would rather forego a promotion than enforce it. When i police substitutions to the letter of the law, it's overly officious and not what 'football expects'. So don't make out that it was any different when you were presiding over parks football

It's the age old thing - if you are on the promotion scheme and the game is eligible for observation you have to assume there is an observer there. If you don't you can't have anyone else to blame but yourself if you are caught out.

 

[Padfoot]

It must be very easy for long-since promoted refs to forget what it's really like at the bottom. Let's not make out that you adhered to every mundane check in the absence of an observer. I 'educate' players on skins and sock tape colour but would rather forego a promotion than enforce it. When i police substitutions to the letter of the law, it's overly officious and not what 'football expects'. So don't make out that it was any different when you were presiding over parks football

If you put yourself up for promotion you need to be getting the basics correct.....equipment checking subs is a basic, and mandatory, requirement of the LOTG.
Lost count of the amount of candidates I have seen that don’t do it......and from there it doesn’t take much to drop into Below Standard......

I was of the understanding that not making yourself known made the observation null and void.

No. Just wishful thinking.

 

[JamesL]

If you put yourself up for promotion you need to be getting the basics correct.....equipment checking subs is a basic, and mandatory, requirement of the LOTG.
Lost count of the amount of candidates I have seen that don’t do it......and from there it doesn’t take much to drop into Below Standard......




No. Just wishful thinking.

I totally agree. Should get basics correct. And I do so a surprise assessment wouldnt really bother me... just that is the word on the street and good to know.

However, is it not hypocritical, seeing as they are not getting the basics right...

Handbook says...

The Observer must make contact with the Referee prior to the game

And then goes on to say

It is expected that the Observer will make contact on match day no later than 30 minutes prior to kick off to confirm match officials and arrange post match contact.

If that hasn't happened the observer has breached his own code of conduct, should there be no penalty for it?

 

[Padfoot]

I totally agree. Should get basics correct. And I do so a surprise assessment wouldnt really bother me... just that is the word on the street and good to know.

However, is it not hypocritical, seeing as they are not getting the basics right...

Handbook says...

The Observer must make contact with the Referee prior to the game

And then goes on to say

It is expected that the Observer will make contact on match day no later than 30 minutes prior to kick off to confirm match officials and arrange post match contact.

If that hasn't happened the observer has breached his own code of conduct, should there be no penalty for it?

I would suggest that the unannounced observation is far more likely to capture the referee in their ‘normal’ mode, especially if the observer stays ‘hidden’ until after KO......

We all know that referees up their game when they know we are going to be there.....and I don’t just mean during the 90 mins either......although it mostly obvious when you have a ref that has changed their game just because we are there.

 

[lincs22]

Handbook says...

The Observer must make contact with the Referee prior to the game

And then goes on to say

It is expected that the Observer will make contact on match day no later than 30 minutes prior to kick off to confirm match officials and arrange post match contact.

If that hasn't happened the observer has breached his own code of conduct, should there be no penalty for it?

As @Padfoot says some referees will change their style if there is an observer present. Some other referees will cry off if they know a certain observer has been appointed to their match - this is a L4 thing and trying to protect their grading.

It is more likely a late appointment, somebody elses match was cancelled and the observer being available was re-assigned that morning.

 

[JamesL]

As @Padfoot says some referees will change their style if there is an observer present. Some other referees will cry off if they know a certain observer has been appointed to their match - this is a L4 thing and trying to protect their grading.

It is more likely a late appointment, somebody elses match was cancelled and the observer being available was re-assigned that morning.

Thats not the point though. True. Some refs change their style and most get caught out because of it.

That doesn't detract from the fact that basic guifance has been ignored. If the FA want to allow secret observing then they should remove the pre match contact expectation. Until then, observers should follow it, no?

Even as a late appointment, I accept that it might not be practical or possible for pre match contact as in via email or call but should at the very least make self known upon arrival at the game.

 

[Padfoot]

Thats not the point though. True. Some refs change their style and most get caught out because of it.

That doesn't detract from the fact that basic guifance has been ignored. If the FA want to allow secret observing then they should remove the pre match contact expectation. Until then, observers should follow it, no?

Even as a late appointment, I accept that it might not be practical or possible for pre match contact as in via email or call but should at the very least make self known upon arrival at the game.

So the observer not announcing themselves caused the referees crap performance? Is that what you’re getting at?

Trying to get a poor observation discarded because of a minor technicality?

 

[Ben448844]

So the observer not announcing themselves caused the referees crap performance? Is that what you’re getting at?

Trying to get a poor observation discarded because of a minor technicality?

It is somewhat hypocritical for an observer to be grading a referee for his ability to follow law/guidance if they aren't following their own.

The grading should still stand imo, but let's remember that observers are also there to help and advise referees and this is rather distorted if they themselves aren't following their own protocol.

 

[JamesL]

So the observer not announcing themselves caused the referees crap performance? Is that what you’re getting at?

Trying to get a poor observation discarded because of a minor technicality?

Not at all. Just pointing out that it is very hypocritical of a person to point out another persons failing to adhere to procedure when said person is failing to adhere to their own procedures.
Please point out where I have promoted discarding the observation... in fact I think I started every post with agreement. I asked a question based on what i had been told. You've answered that, thank you.

I just wondered what the ramifications are for an observer who isnt doing the job properly..

They seem keen to catch out the referee not doing the job properly, AND RIGHTLY SO, but it feels a little like double standards if you ask me..

 

[zarathustra]

I have to say I am in agreement with others, while I am certainly not suggesting that the observation should be discarded, it is most definitely hypocritical if the observer is unable, or unwilling to follow the procedures laid out for them by the FA.

While they may not have time for a call or email if this was a late appointment they should be introducing themselves to the referee before the game.

at 6-5 I doubt the game was as regimented as some further up the ladder where timings re getting teams lined up in the tunnel, being on the pitch for handshakes etc 5 mins before kick off would apply, therefore there should be plenty of time for the observer to find the referee and quickly introduce himself.

However, having said that, I could certainly see the benefits in "surprise" observations. It would provide a true example of how referees really behave during matches. Do they do pitch inspections, kit inspections etc. Do they enforce things like sock tape and undershirts/shorts, do the enforce the mandatory cautions etc.

But, if the FA want observers to be able to do that then they need to change their guidance.

Incidentally, in my county we get told by the observer coordinator for our area when we have been assigned an observer, and the onus is put on the referee to make contact and confirm match details etc. I think the furthest in advance I've received notification of an observer was 3 weeks before the game, and the closes was 2 or 3 days.

 

[Big Cat]

equipment checking subs is a basic, and mandatory, requirement of the LOTG

Er... I know this
Senior County Leagues and all Steps above that, kits need to be spot on and that's what football expects
However, I did an U15 gave in the cold and wet yesterday and half the kids had something wrong with their kit (wrong colour base layer etc). I have the discussion with them, but i'm embarrassed to do so and there's zero chance of me enforcing this Law at this level

 

[JamesL]

Er... I know this
Senior County Leagues and all Steps above that, kits need to be spot on and that's what football expects
However, I did an U15 gave in the cold and wet yesterday and half the kids had something wrong with their kit (wrong colour base layer etc). I have the discussion with them, but i'm embarrassed to do so and there's zero chance of me enforcing this Law at this level

Cant believe you played it....

 

[Tino Best]

If you are doing nothing wrong a surprise observation should not be an issue. I worked for a company who did surprise quality checks on their chain of restaurants. If you know you are going to be inspected you can fix things but things but the company wants to see if you have the same standards all the time. I always do my pre match checks and try to ref to a high standard no matter which level I am reffing.

 

[JamesL]

If you are doing nothing wrong a surprise observation should not be an issue. I worked for a company who did surprise quality checks on their chain of restaurants. If you know you are going to be inspected you can fix things but things but the company wants to see if you have the same standards all the time. I always do my pre match checks and try to ref to a high standard no matter which level I am reffing.

Yeh but that company was likely up front about it...
I am all for surprise observation. What I am not in favour of is observers deviating from a standard code of conduct.

 

[Big Cat]

I think I'd rather have a mystery shopper

 

[RustyRef]

I always make pre-match contact. But then for one game I got there and it was off so I was asked to go to another. I got there 5 mins before kick off and I didn't think it right to speak to the officials as it was far too close to kick off. That was all above board, and another reason why you should always assume you are being observed.