RefSix

Offside or not?

#1
Had a game today, no ARs.. Green attacking Player #11 shot at goals, approx 5m away from penalty area. He was positioned somewhat central in front of goals, and had 3 defenders in front of him plus goalie. Defenders were positioned just inside penalty area. After Green #11 shot at goals, ball went into one of the defenders and gone away to the right. There was another attacking player running from the right, #9, who picked up deflected ball and scored. When he touched the ball, he was approx 3 metres behind defender, and 2 years ago it would be clear offside to me. I cannot tell whether #9 was onside or offside at the moment of kick, as it was too close to call without AR help. Lets pretend #9 was offside at the moment of #11 kicking the ball. My logic for allowing the goal was that when #11 kicked, ball was going straight towards the goals, #9 was on the far right side, even though, potentially, behind defenders, and he wasn't taking active part in play nor he was obstructing any views, although he was running inside of penalty area, from right corner of PA. Then ball deflected from defender, and because of that its not offside also. So goal was allowed...
Of course, i heard a lot of whingeing from defending team, one of their players was claiming to be referee also and his point was that at the moment of kick, #9 was offside, so shouldnt be a goal....
What do you guys think on this?
 
#2
Screenshot_20190629-091538__01.jpg
For me what you've explained sounds like the ball hit the defender and it wasnt a deliberate play by the defender. So if #9 was in an offside position i would have given offside.

If the defender attempts to clear the ball and miskicks it and it goes to #9 then I'm playing on and allowing the goal.
 

RustyRef

Administrator
Staff member
#4
It depends whether the defender blocking the ball deliberately played it or not. If he did, and it can't really have been a save that far out, the #9 is onside. If it just hit the defender and rebounded off him then the #9 is offside.
 

one

RefChat Addict
#5
You use the term "deflected" several times when explaining the touch by defender. Deflection means he did not deliberately play the ball. The laws have not changed in this regard in recent times and certainly not since two years ago. You basically take the defender's touch out of it, if #9 was in an offside position. At the time of the kick then it's an offence, otherwise it's not.

It comes down to if your definition of "deflection" matches what is taught to referees or what players call a deflection.
 
#6
Others have said it well. This is an impossible call to make without greater clarity on what this means: “ball went into one of the defenders and gone away to the right.” There are three options:
-a deflection, which is a ball that bounces off a defender with not more than a flinch or instinctive stab. This does NOT reset OS, and player would be off
-a deliberate play, which means a considered act, whether controlled or not—a step towards the bal shows it is a deliberate play. This DOES reset OS, so good goal
-a save, which is blocking a bal going into or close to the goal. Not impossible to have a save away from the goal line, but hard for me to picture that here. So it really falls down to the distinction between deflection and deliberate. And that is always a hot point because few players coaches understand the distinction. (Well, and to many refs don’t really either, but that’s another story...)
 
#7
Thanks guys.. "Deliberate" vs "deflection" - is the key to pay attention to. Ability to control the ball comes to mind when deciding between those 2... if defender makes few steps forward and use his legs to shield the ball - is that deliberate? As oppose to when they use upper body - which can be considered deflection?
 

Nij

Active Member
#8
Thanks guys.. "Deliberate" vs "deflection" - is the key to pay attention to. Ability to control the ball comes to mind when deciding between those 2... if defender makes few steps forward and use his legs to shield the ball - is that deliberate? As oppose to when they use upper body - which can be considered deflection?
Depends on when the steps happened and why. If they're clearly trying to only block a shot that is on or close to target, that suggests it would be a save, even at long distance. However if it's more of a cross or a pass and they try to intercept, or an attempt at dribbling around that they tackle, that would make it a deliberate play. If again the ball is totally unexpected and it just bounces off them, that's then a deflection.

Where on the body it hits them doesn't change what the action was. A save can be made with, and the ball can deflect off, the feet or legs. The classics are a goal-line save made by sliding feet-first, or a defender who can't see the shot for screening who then gets it blasted into their leg.

Similarly, a deliberate play can be made with the body or head. This has been the cause of many "offsides" becoming legitimate plays because the defender tried to stop a pass that would have gone to a PIOSP, but only did half the job, making them onside.
 
#9
Thanks guys.. "Deliberate" vs "deflection" - is the key to pay attention to. Ability to control the ball comes to mind when deciding between those 2... if defender makes few steps forward and use his legs to shield the ball - is that deliberate? As oppose to when they use upper body - which can be considered deflection?
Based on what the laws say about deliberate vs deflection (nothing) it's entirely up to you as the referee to decide. Nobody else can really decide for you. What the laws do say is that:
Decisions will be made to the best of the referee's ability according to the Laws of the Game and the ‘spirit of the game’ and will be based on the opinion of the referee, who has the discretion to take appropriate action within the framework of the Laws of the Game.
As the saying goes, "That's why we get paid the big bucks." :D

In case it helps, FIFA and UEFA, after the changes to the offside law that included the mention of a deliberate play, issued a document listing some of the considerations they think are relevant, as shown below:
DeflectVDeliberate.png
Now, this document and the criteria it contains were never endorsed or issued by the IFAB as far as I'm aware and I know there have been some questions about its true applicability. Personally, I'm a bit doubtful about whether for instance, the ball must be "properly played" before it can be considered deliberate. Still, it's perhaps a starting point and better than no guidance at all, which is what the laws provide.
 
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#10
Based on what the laws say about deliberate vs deflection (nothing) it's entirely up to you as the referee to decide. Nobody else can really decide for you. What the laws do say is that:

As the saying goes, "That's why we get paid the big bucks." :D

In case it helps, FIFA and UEFA, after the changes to the offside law that included the mention of a deliberate play, issued a document listing some of the considerations they think are relevant, as shown below:
View attachment 3558
Now, this document and the criteria it contains were never endorsed or issued by the IFAB as far as I'm aware and I know there have been some questions about its true applicability. Personally, I'm a bit doubtful about whether for instance, the ball must be "properly played" before it can be considered deliberate. Still, it's perhaps a starting point and better than no guidance at all, which is what the laws provide.
I agree that “properly played” is marginally useful. If the ball is properly played, that’s an easy call. But if the ball is improperly played, I think it pretty clearly can still be a deliberate play—a poor play is still a play.
 
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