A&H

Poor Positioning

HoofItYouDonkey

HoofItYouDonkey

RefChat Addict
Level 6 Referee
Guilty!!
First game of the season last Sunday.
Half way through the second half and a clash in the box. Unfortunately it was a large pitch and I was 'head on' to the decision as I was running back from the other end, rather than a view from the side (a la the 'lazy 's'), so I did not have a proper view and did not give it. It was a penalty, the defender admitted afterwards. The attacking side won 5-0, so it was not an issue, but reinforced the importance of how much more you can see from an angle rather than head on.
 
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Lesson learned.
Angle is more important than closeness. When you're chasing play like this, angle off. You'll be further away, but have a better view. If you can, keep the ball between yourself and your AR (ie angle to the left), but occasionally you might get stuck angling off to the same side as your AR (ie you're already on that side, and to cross over to the left would put you in the worst position at a critical moment, so you maintain running on the right).

Think about whether you could have pre-empted play more and been further upfield.
 
On a similar note, have you ever let player reaction change your mind about whether your angles/view were correct?

A few weekends back, a center back has made a challenge on the attacker. As I saw (or thought I'd saw) from the side, defender has caught him full extension, studs up half way up his shin. Red Card ... I blow the whistle and call the defender over. Attacker straight back up on his feet, no reaction from anyone on the pitch or spectators. As the player is walking towards me, the defenders team mate walks past me and says 'straight red isn't it mate?' and begins laughing, taps me on the back and walks off. I then start to question whether I saw it correctly, questioning my angle and questioning whether I was about to make the right decision. I then went with the yellow. Again, this prompted no reaction from anyone, defender gives his name and jogs back into position.

After the game, somebody begins to question my decision not to give a red and I was dwelling on that for a few days after.
 
Sheffields Finest said:
It’s luck, you can still miss something when it’s in plain sight.....
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Agreed - There's luck involved, but getting out wide gives us a better chance of an unobstructed view and it's advantageous to get that oblique angle. I had a tackle on Saturday which was potentially SFP. Although being well positioned, a player crossed my line of view just at the wrong moment
QuaverRef said:
On a similar note, have you ever let player reaction change your mind about whether your angles/view were correct?

A few weekends back, a center back has made a challenge on the attacker. As I saw (or thought I'd saw) from the side, defender has caught him full extension, studs up half way up his shin. Red Card ... I blow the whistle and call the defender over. Attacker straight back up on his feet, no reaction from anyone on the pitch or spectators. As the player is walking towards me, the defenders team mate walks past me and says 'straight red isn't it mate?' and begins laughing, taps me on the back and walks off. I then start to question whether I saw it correctly, questioning my angle and questioning whether I was about to make the right decision. I then went with the yellow. Again, this prompted no reaction from anyone, defender gives his name and jogs back into position.

After the game, somebody begins to question my decision not to give a red and I was dwelling on that for a few days after.
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Not sure I follow Quaver
Nonetheless, we'd be kidding ourselves if we denied using all available information at times. Take the tackle above, the reaction of players/spectators was fairly muted. Given my obstructed view, I went with C1 RP. This was issued on the balance of probabilities and I'd say I got it right, albeit via a dubious decision process
 
Big Cat said:
Not sure I follow Quaver
Nonetheless, we'd be kidding ourselves if we denied using all available information at times. Take the tackle above, the reaction of players/spectators was fairly muted. Given my obstructed view, I went with C1 RP. This was issued on the balance of probabilities and I'd say I got it right, albeit via a dubious decision process
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Sorry, I didn't tell that story well.. What I'm asking is whether reactions of players has ever made you question your view of an incident. In the scenario above, I thought I'd spotted a pretty awful challenge but nobody around me batted and eyelid and an opposition player even joked with me about giving a red before I'd made my decision known. I then changed my mind, went for the yellow instead of the red thinking I'd seen the incident incorrectly. Even the yellow didn't provoke reaction until somebody began to question me after the game
 
QuaverRef said:
Sorry, I didn't tell that story well.. What I'm asking is whether reactions of players has ever made you question your view of an incident. In the scenario above, I thought I'd spotted a pretty awful challenge but nobody around me batted and eyelid and an opposition player even joked with me about giving a red before I'd made my decision known. I then changed my mind, went for the yellow instead of the red thinking I'd seen the incident incorrectly. Even the yellow didn't provoke reaction until somebody began to question me after the game
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OK, Understood
Your decision therefore shared some similarities with mine, except that I didn't get a clear view
Be interesting to hear what others advise
 
QuaverRef said:
Sorry, I didn't tell that story well.. What I'm asking is whether reactions of players has ever made you question your view of an incident. In the scenario above, I thought I'd spotted a pretty awful challenge but nobody around me batted and eyelid and an opposition player even joked with me about giving a red before I'd made my decision known. I then changed my mind, went for the yellow instead of the red thinking I'd seen the incident incorrectly. Even the yellow didn't provoke reaction until somebody began to question me after the game
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Sometimes it just happens that way. The reaction of players isn't always what you expect. It sounds to me like they gave you a "get out of jail card" in as much as it probably would have produced howls of protest and derision had you shown the red. Correct decision I'd say. ;)

A top (PGMOL) referee once advised me - "if you're not 100% sure, give the expected decision". This can be anything from a handball in the middle of the field to a last minute penalty for a clumsy challenge. It's worked for me on a couple of occasions .... :)
 
Sheffields Finest said:
It’s luck, you can still miss something when it’s in plain sight.....
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Yeah, I missed a punch up that happened behind me in the last match, which rankles with me as it was assessed match. @_@

Though, the ones that really annoy me is where I catch the aftermath in my peripheral vision but miss what actually happened.

QuaverRef said:
What I'm asking is whether reactions of players has ever made you question your view of an incident. In the scenario above, I thought I'd spotted a pretty awful challenge but nobody around me batted and eyelid and an opposition player even joked with me about giving a red before I'd made my decision known.
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Yes.

Last week I spotted a stamp/kick out. Called the player over, sent him off. Disbelief from him and his team, he genuinely felt he was innocent. What threw me for six was the guy he stamped said to me "Come on ref, that's only a yellow man."

Hearing that really put the doubt in my head. Fortunately, assessor was there and said I was spot on, so that re-assurance helped. If I didn't have an assessor there though, knowing me, I would probably spend too much time dwelling on it. :wall: I guess we should be more confident in our abilities, but we're only human really.
 
Kes said:
Sometimes it just happens that way. The reaction of players isn't always what you expect. It sounds to me like they gave you a "get out of jail card" in as much as it probably would have produced howls of protest and derision had you shown the red. Correct decision I'd say. ;)

A top (PGMOL) referee once advised me - "if you're not 100% sure, give the expected decision". This can be anything from a handball in the middle of the field to a last minute penalty for a clumsy challenge. It's worked for me on a couple of occasions .... :)
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The purists won't like it but.... smart refereeing
 
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Agree completely on the viewing angle, it is vital. Whilst it seems odd to not run directly towards play as you try and catch up, you'd be better off further away if it means you have an angled view.

In terms of questioning your decision, your first reaction and impression will almost always be right. Not dissimilar to when you do a quiz or watch a TV quiz, you go with your gut instinct only to then talk yourself out of it and find you were right the first time. I remember one contrib game where an attacking player made what I thought was a shocking tackle right in front of the benches. My immediate reaction was red, but as I raced in expecting carnage nothing happened, no other players waded in, the benches didn't get involved, so alarm bells were ringing. I gave myself thinking time as the fouled player was treated, but luckily in the end pulled the red out.

I say luckily as at half time the secretary of the home team, who were down to 10, popped his head round the door and said great decision. Then my coach came in and rollocked me asking why on earth I took so long. He was convinced that, in his words, I'd bottled out of a 100% correct red card decision. Then after the game the assessor said pretty much the same, he fully backed the red and was worried that I was going to go yellow. I don't know why the players didn't react like I'd expected them to, but does go to show that you can't always rely on player reaction.
 
I've had those exact moments as well. Spotted a very late stamp which on the tele always is and should be a red. Defender barely blinks, attacker knows he was late. No one else even protested for the foul. Went with the yellow, thinking I could still class it as reckless. Defender did break a bone in his foot tho, it later turned out. He was tough as nails and finished the game without flinching at the pain apparently
 
I saw a player stamp on another player off the ball once, play had moved on and I had a perfect view. Manager went loopy as I showed the red and was berating the fact that it was the third time I’d sent him off (his grandson) I told him to ask him what he’d done and see me after he game.... got a massive apology later after he’d admitted what he’d done!!! Good job I knew his SP and was ready for what transpired... cant beat insider knowledge on certain players naughtiness...
 
You have to very careful when giving 'expected decisions' based on player reactions. Often see similar challenges punished more severely just between one team reacts angrily while the other didn't.

Teams certainly know the game and will react purely to get the opposition player in trouble, the side who are honest and don't react end up losing out.
 
Tru dat... big reactions can’t be trusted... non-reactions however are often useful signals.

But use rarely! Don’t get into the habit if waiting with the whistle for whatever reason because late whistles after appeals make the players think you are being swayed ;)
 
Regarding letting players reactions change a decision i think its only natural.

What i would say is i wouldn't letting influence me to change from a yellow to a red but it might make me change from a red to a yellow (if that makes sense)
 
spuddy1878 said:
Regarding letting players reactions change a decision i think its only natural.

What i would say is i wouldn't letting influence me to change from a yellow to a red but it might make me change from a red to a yellow (if that makes sense)
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I never cared what players thought, never ever changed a decision on reaction, I did change a decision if someone fessed up to a throw in wrong way etc. Some players are out and out cheats so say what you saw and £&@k the silly biased reactions. Be the boss!
 
Sheffields Finest said:
I never cared what players thought, never ever changed a decision on reaction, I did change a decision if someone fessed up to a throw in wrong way etc. Some players are out and out cheats so say what you saw and £&@k the silly biased reactions. Be the boss!
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We're not talking about changing a decision because a player told you something. We're talking about using the instinctive initial reactions to players as a very loose guide for confirming that your initial instinct is in the right ballpark.
 
GraemeS said:
We're not talking about changing a decision because a player told you something. We're talking about using the instinctive initial reactions to players as a very loose guide for confirming that your initial instinct is in the right ballpark.
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Yes, player reaction can be a guide. If you are 70% sure it is a penalty is that high enough to blow for it if there are no appeals? Certainly isn't for me and that would set alarm bells ringing. If the ball goes out for a throw in and you haven't got a clue, but only one player goes to get the ball you have your answer, it might not be the right one but no one will complain if it is wrong.

The problem comes where you are 100% sure you have seen it correctly yet the expected player behaviour doesn't occur, as per my example. Then you either have to question whether your 100% certainty was 100%, or stick with your convictions and go with your original view (which in my experience will almost always be correct).
 
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