Scott Parker on you know what

[PinnerPaul]

I know, I know but bear with me!

He obviously didn't agree with penalty decision, but his interview was interesting and damning of VAR at the same time.

Pre VAR days, he said he would have still disagreed with the pen decision, but would have accepted it as pull although outside the area WAS difficult to spot at full speed from the referee' s position and complicated by the attacker's fall inside the pen area after the tug. He accepted that all these factors made it difficult for the referee. However what he couldn't accept was the referee giving it after getting a 2nd/3rd look at it.

That's the problem in a nutshell I think, it has actually made people in the game more resentful of 'wrong' decisions, partly because they were sold the 'dream' that they would disappear with VAR.

 

[Jtpetherick1]

I know, I know but bear with me!

He obviously didn't agree with penalty decision, but his interview was interesting and damning of VAR at the same time.

Pre VAR days, he said he would have still disagreed with the pen decision, but would have accepted it as pull although outside the area WAS difficult to spot at full speed from the referee' s position and complicated by the attacker's fall inside the pen area after the tug. He accepted that all these factors made it difficult for the referee. However what he couldn't accept was the referee giving it after getting a 2nd/3rd look at it.

That's the problem in a nutshell I think, it has actually made people in the game more resentful of 'wrong' decisions, partly because they were sold the 'dream' that they would disappear with VAR.

'And if you believe that, I'll tell you another,' Scott said, a wry smile upon his face.

Managers, fans, pundits did not accept refereeing errors without VAR - anyone who says they did is lying.

 

[Big Cat]

I know, I know but bear with me!

He obviously didn't agree with penalty decision, but his interview was interesting and damning of VAR at the same time.

Pre VAR days, he said he would have still disagreed with the pen decision, but would have accepted it as pull although outside the area WAS difficult to spot at full speed from the referee' s position and complicated by the attacker's fall inside the pen area after the tug. He accepted that all these factors made it difficult for the referee. However what he couldn't accept was the referee giving it after getting a 2nd/3rd look at it.

That's the problem in a nutshell I think, it has actually made people in the game more resentful of 'wrong' decisions, partly because they were sold the 'dream' that they would disappear with VAR.

Firstly, Scott Parker is a very balanced and intelligent chap

I get the argument that the majority of stakeholders vehemently pushed to introduce technology into the game (but I don't see why they're precluded from changing their minds)
Realistically, nobody could've foreseen the consequences of FIFA's incarnation of VAR
That said, it's not really surprising that people find it more difficult to accept decisions made by VAR. Ultimately, the same people have learned the hard way, that it's easier to accept fallible decisions made ITOOTR

This is a good case in point. I thought it was a FK outside the PA. I can accept that Scott thought otherwise. It went to VAR to determine if the offence was inside the PA. Once it went to VAR, the decision then less acceptable IMO
Net result, this game would've been better off with the intrusion of VAR

More than anything, I hate the inability to celebrate a goal. The list of VAR consequences I dislike, is innumerable

 

[onthebrink]

Of course people will be more critical of an incorrect decision if an official has the chance to look at multiple replays (as the VAR did in Everton V Liverpool with Van Djik/Pickford for instance) because it should be easier to make a decision when having the time to look at multiple replays from the best angle compared to in real time.

But equally the fact it should be easier means decisions are made by VAR that the referee initially gets wrong, such as the penalty originally given to Wolves V Chelsea last week.

I think VAR is here to stay and in the longer term at least will be good from an officiating perspective (and I believe the game itself) but there has been/will be many hurdles along the way and the criticism of VAR for poor decisions will generally be more intense than previously (although I think we sometimes forget how intense it could be previously!)

 

[Kes]

This is a good case in point. I thought it was a FK outside the PA. I can accept that Scott thought otherwise. It went to VAR to determine if the offence was inside the PA. Once it went to VAR, the decision then less acceptable IMO
Net result, this game would've been better off with the intrusion of VAR

As I recall, it was only the VAR deliberation that revealed that it was a slight trip on Wilson's trailing leg once they were both well inside the area that caused him to go down. The fact he was being pulled 7 yards before that was shown to be irrelevant - even if it was what caused the referee's original penalty decision and thus brought VAR into the picture.

 

[RustyRef]

As I recall, it was only the VAR deliberation that revealed that it was a slight trip on Wilson's trailing leg once they were both well inside the area that caused him to go down. The fact he was being pulled 7 yards before that was shown to be irrelevant - even if it was what caused the referee's original penalty decision and thus brought VAR into the picture.

Yes, I agree. There has been a lot of criticism of this decision but there was a very clear kick on Wilson's foot well inside the penalty area, and running at speed that is going to take you down. There is an argument to say that made it more of a play for the ball, but from memory the ball had rolled on.

 

[Paul_10]

Problem is, would Parker really of been more understanding like that in the pre VAR days? Who knows as he never managed then but theres been plenty of managers and pundits who called for help for referees because of the speed of the game etc.

I wonder what Mark Hughes would of been like with VAR, he was by far the worst manager to blame the referee if a call went against his side but never acknowledged when a decision goes his way, it almost felt he was hoping the ref would make a howler if his team lost so he could use that as a cover up.

VAR could well be better if/when we hear the conversations between the ref and VAR. I don't understand why they getting the audio from the VAR only for commentators but that can't be broadcast for the public. I'm guessing so the commentators can tell the public if a review is taking place but its frustrating we can't hear it, hope it happens one day.

 

[Big Cat]

As I recall, it was only the VAR deliberation that revealed that it was a slight trip on Wilson's trailing leg once they were both well inside the area that caused him to go down. The fact he was being pulled 7 yards before that was shown to be irrelevant - even if it was what caused the referee's original penalty decision and thus brought VAR into the picture.

Shirt pull outside the PA was the first foul play IMO

 

[Jtpetherick1]

Shirt pull outside the PA was the first foul play IMO

And?

 

[Big Cat]

Problem is, would Parker really of been more understanding like that in the pre VAR days? Who knows as he never managed then but theres been plenty of managers and pundits who called for help for referees because of the speed of the game etc.

I wonder what Mark Hughes would of been like with VAR, he was by far the worst manager to blame the referee if a call went against his side but never acknowledged when a decision goes his way, it almost felt he was hoping the ref would make a howler if his team lost so he could use that as a cover up.

VAR could well be better if/when we hear the conversations between the ref and VAR. I don't understand why they getting the audio from the VAR only for commentators but that can't be broadcast for the public. I'm guessing so the commentators can tell the public if a review is taking place but its frustrating we can't hear it, hope it happens one day.

Anything will be taken down and used as evidence against. Comms from the VAR would make things worse, as it's more fodder to slaughter the officials. As for hearing what the referee is saying, unless the background abuse can be filtered out, all games will need to be played after the watershed

 

[Big Cat]

And?

We've had this out. We're on a different page. Move on. We won't agree, but;

To clarify my view once again;
My view is that the foul play was all caused by the shirt pull outside the PA. It's more likely that I'd have deemed this pull a foul than I would the consequential, trivial, accidental and not particularly careless contact inside the PA. The two instances of contact were sequential. No advantage played. Penalise the first offence in sequence. No perpetuation of a pull from out/inside PA
Easy DFK & Dismissal. No complaints. Fair outcome IMO
Don't really see what the problem is

 

[wazztie16]

Of course people will be more critical of an incorrect decision if an official has the chance to look at multiple replays (as the VAR did in Everton V Liverpool with Van Djik/Pickford for instance) because it should be easier to make a decision when having the time to look at multiple replays from the best angle compared to in real time.

But equally the fact it should be easier means decisions are made by VAR that the referee initially gets wrong, such as the penalty originally given to Wolves V Chelsea last week.

I think VAR is here to stay and in the longer term at least will be good from an officiating perspective (and I believe the game itself) but there has been/will be many hurdles along the way and the criticism of VAR for poor decisions will generally be more intense than previously (although I think we sometimes forget how intense it could be previously!)

VAR IS here to stay, a Premier League referee stated that at a previous RA meeting I attended.

The cost involved in setting it up was the reasoning.

 

[GraemeS]

We've had this out. We're on a different page. Move on. We won't agree, but;

To clarify my view once again;
My view is that the foul play was all caused by the shirt pull outside the PA. It's more likely that I'd have deemed this pull a foul than I would the consequential, trivial, accidental and not particularly careless contact inside the PA. The two instances of contact were sequential. No advantage played. Penalise the first offence in sequence. No perpetuation of a pull from out/inside PA
Easy DFK & Dismissal. No complaints. Fair outcome IMO
Don't really see what the problem is

I think it's an entirely fair question. If the pulling started outside the box but continued until he got in, it's well established that a penalty is the correct decision - the concept of "implied advantage" comes in to play.

And it's very straightforward to see how this also applies to two fouls of different types in quick succession where one is in and one is outside the penalty area - again, you play an advantage and give the penalty.

I'm entirely sympathetic to the view that the second offence in this incident can be considered trifling and not a foul. But the fact that the shirt pull outside the area happened first (as stated by you in post 8) is irrelevant and is right to be questioned. Judge them both as a foul and you should be giving the second (PK and YC IMO, although I can see a case for RC). Judge only the first incident a foul and you give that (DFK + RC). Either of those is an acceptable baseline logic.

In neither example though do you give the first one just because it happened first, that's a worrying statement to make. If there's an advantage to be played, even implicitly because it took time to blow the whistle, then you should be playing it.

 

[Brian Hamilton]

More than anything, I hate the inability to celebrate a goal. The list of VAR consequences I dislike, is innumerable

If you can't celebrate every goal because you fear VAR will rule it out, get a grip. Why are you unable to celebrate? Celebrate and then if it is ruled out, shrug and carry on. It's what we all used to do when "goals" were ruled out by late offside signals. Sometimes we used words that would make our mums blush, but mostly we waited for the next shot on goal.

Everything is a drama.

 

[Big Cat]

If you can't celebrate every goal because you fear VAR will rule it out, get a grip. Why are you unable to celebrate? Celebrate and then if it is ruled out, shrug and carry on. It's what we all used to do when "goals" were ruled out by late offside signals. Sometimes we used words that would make our mums blush, but mostly we waited for the next shot on goal.

Everything is a drama.

No. Just plain no. We've always had goals ruled out, but that process has been fairly instantaneous. As referees, we in particular would always glance at the AR whilst experiencing the best moment in football... goal celebration
It's entirely different now. If I say, 'I hate the inability to celebrate a goal', then that's how I feel. For me, VAR has killed the best moment in football
I know we've had a misunderstanding or two of late, but to say, 'get a grip', is mildly insulting. I have a grip
Three things (in order) have ruined the game I formerly loved and supported through thick and thin;
i. VAR
ii. The cavernous gulf between Champions League teams and the 'Also Rans'
iii. Pathetic player behaviour / cheating
So if VAR is top of my list, I'm entitled to state that 'muted celebration' is also top of my sub-list. I hate it, whether it bothers you or not
I've a good deal of respect for your posts and experience in the game. We don't need to agree for that to be reciprocated

 

[GraemeS]

No. Just plain no. We've always had goals ruled out, but that process has been fairly instantaneous. As referees, we in particular would always glance at the AR whilst experiencing the best moment in football... goal celebration
It's entirely different now. If I say, 'I hate the inability to celebrate a goal', then that's how I feel. For me, VAR has killed the best moment in football
I know we've had a misunderstanding or two of late, but to say, 'get a grip', is mildly insulting. I have a grip
Three things (in order) have ruined the game I formerly loved and supported through thick and thin;
i. VAR
ii. The cavernous gulf between Champions League teams and the 'Also Rans'
iii. Pathetic player behaviour / cheating
So if VAR is top of my list, I'm entitled to state that 'muted celebration' is also top of my sub-list. I hate it, whether it bothers you or not
I've a good deal of respect for your posts and experience in the game. We don't need to agree for that to be reciprocated

But that's a choice you've made. I've celebrated some goals less because I've seen an obvious reason in the build up that it's likely to get disallowed, but as Brian points out, that's always been the case. Absent that, why make the decision not to enjoy the moment?

I've injured myself celebrating a goal this season to the point I had to consider going to A&E post-match for an hand x-ray. The fact that goal ended up being chalked off due to a microscopic offside I hadn't anticipated doesn't for a second change how I felt in that initial moment when the ball hit the net. If VAR has made you choose to be grumpy and not celebrate goals, that's a "you" problem, not a VAR problem.

 

[Big Cat]

But that's a choice you've made. I've celebrated some goals less because I've seen an obvious reason in the build up that it's likely to get disallowed, but as Brian points out, that's always been the case. Absent that, why make the decision not to enjoy the moment?

I've injured myself celebrating a goal this season to the point I had to consider going to A&E post-match for an hand x-ray. The fact that goal ended up being chalked off due to a microscopic offside I hadn't anticipated doesn't for a second change how I felt in that initial moment when the ball hit the net. If VAR has made you choose to be grumpy and not celebrate goals, that's a "you" problem, not a VAR problem.

I haven't made a conscious choice
I work for a Sports Broadcast Company, so I'm surrounded by screens in the office, some of which show the football and I also gamble on various things. If it wasn't for that, I'd be unaware of what's happening in elite football and have long since stopped going.
Instead, at every opportunity, I watch local football, typically steps 2 thru 5. What's grumpy about that? I'm still passionate about grass-roots football because 'none of the above' apply
I'm not alone. I'm surrounded by 'like-minded' acquaintances. My Dad has given up his season-ticket. I can't even guess how long he held it for. He used to take my nephew and Grand Kids. But he's sick of it. Pretty much the same reasons as I've stated
The games are still well attended by the likes of yourself, but accept that some of us have turned our backs on it for the reasons stated

 

[es1]

If you can't celebrate every goal because you fear VAR will rule it out, get a grip. Why are you unable to celebrate? Celebrate and then if it is ruled out, shrug and carry on. It's what we all used to do when "goals" were ruled out by late offside signals. Sometimes we used words that would make our mums blush, but mostly we waited for the next shot on goal.

Everything is a drama.

i hate VAR (the way it is implemented, not the principle) with a passion.

i've not celebrated some goals city have scored both in the ground and on tv because of VAR (the anticipation of goals being disallowed which were then allowed), big goals in cup finals and champions league knockout games. that's not how football should be and i dont see myself continuing to go long term if the process isnt changed drastically and soon.

there's many fans i know, both city fans and other prem clubs and they all feel the same.

 

[PinnerPaul]

Back to the Scott Parker argument

Pre VAR - yes he would have moaned
With VAR - yes he HAS moaned
NOW - but without VAR, having seen it in action - as he said, he's still not going to agree but happy to go with ref's decision as he has seen the alternative and he doesn't like it.

Think its a bit arrogant, if I'm being honest, to dismiss a professional's view with the surety some of you have.

We're not talking some old dinosaur manager moaning about one decision, we're talking about a manager who until very recently played at the top level - if he says it makes the game worse, I think it is an opinion that has to be respected.

Brian 'Late flag' same as 3 minutes of VAR deliberation? - Come on!

 

[Jtpetherick1]

Back to the Scott Parker argument

Pre VAR - yes he would have moaned
With VAR - yes he HAS moaned
NOW - but without VAR, having seen it in action - as he said, he's still not going to agree but happy to go with ref's decision as he has seen the alternative and he doesn't like it.

Think its a bit arrogant, if I'm being honest, to dismiss a professional's view with the surety some of you have.

We're not talking some old dinosaur manager moaning about one decision, we're talking about a manager who until very recently played at the top level - if he says it makes the game worse, I think it is an opinion that has to be respected.

Brian 'Late flag' same as 3 minutes of VAR deliberation? - Come on!

Who dismissed the professional's view? It is a fact that he said he wouldn't have complained without VAR - you have said that is untrue. So he's spouting nonsense.