RefSix

Sin bins

zarathustra

RefChat Addict
#1
So, sin bins are coming in for grass roots across the country next season.

Do those of you who have been using them for a while have any tips for those of us will be using then for the first time?

Obvious the application of the law is the same but, things like the best way to record who is or has been in the sun bin might be useful.
 
#2
So, sin bins are coming in for grass roots across the country next season.

Do those of you who have been using them for a while have any tips for those of us will be using then for the first time?

Obvious the application of the law is the same but, things like the best way to record who is or has been in the sun bin might be useful.
Firstly, make sure time of caution is wrote down. That way you will always have something to refer to if you forget. So name, number, time will give you the info you need.

One thing that still should be used is the stepped approach. I know of referees who jump straight to the use of the sin bin at the first sign of dissent as they think it will work better. This is not the advice of the FA and just annoys teams. So caution as you usually would for dissent.

Remember a player is not sent off for an ordinary caution after a dissent caution despite you showing him 2 yellow cards. Theres a really useful table to guide how the sin bin works depending on what you caution for. If needed take it as a guide with you to start.

And maybe buy some ear plugs for when a player is in there... not one of them knows how long 10 minutes is so they have to ask you if times up at least every 30 seconds!!!
 

Kent Ref

Well-Known Member
#3
As i said before a player shown 2 dissent yellows can be replaced once the "bin" time is up - why?

Surely the non-offending team has the right to play against 10 for the remainder? How does this aspect of sin-bins help the non-guilty teams?
 

Brian Hamilton

I am the storm
Observer/Tutor
#4
Firstly, make sure time of caution is wrote down. That way you will always have something to refer to if you forget. So name, number, time will give you the info you need.

One thing that still should be used is the stepped approach. I know of referees who jump straight to the use of the sin bin at the first sign of dissent as they think it will work better. This is not the advice of the FA and just annoys teams. So caution as you usually would for dissent.

Remember a player is not sent off for an ordinary caution after a dissent caution despite you showing him 2 yellow cards. Theres a really useful table to guide how the sin bin works depending on what you caution for. If needed take it as a guide with you to start.

And maybe buy some ear plugs for when a player is in there... not one of them knows how long 10 minutes is so they have to ask you if times up at least every 30 seconds!!!
Practical advice and very welcome.

Small point, it's either dissent or it's not. If it's dissent, caution for it. If it's not, then don't. Don't use the stepped approach for dissent. You can use it for player protests, but once the player crosses the boundary and commits an act of dissent, caution. Likewise, don't use the sin bin as a means of avoiding a red card for OFFINABUS. The training from The FA homed in on this point... OFFINABUS is not dissent and deserves a red card, not 10 minutes cooling of the heels.
 

Brian Hamilton

I am the storm
Observer/Tutor
#5
As i said before a player shown 2 dissent yellows can be replaced once the "bin" time is up - why?

Surely the non-offending team has the right to play against 10 for the remainder? How does this aspect of sin-bins help the non-guilty teams?
It's not meant to help the non-offending teams, it's meant to help manage player behaviour towards match officials. They can only substitute the offending player if they haven't used all their available substitutes.
 

lincs22

Supply League Observer
Staff member
Observer/Tutor
#6
So, sin bins are coming in for grass roots across the country next season.

Do those of you who have been using them for a while have any tips for those of us will be using then for the first time?

Obvious the application of the law is the same but, things like the best way to record who is or has been in the sun bin might be useful.
Your CFA should be organising some training seminars. Check your CFA website for details.
 

Kent Ref

Well-Known Member
#7
It's not meant to help the non-offending teams, it's meant to help manage player behaviour towards match officials. They can only substitute the offending player if they haven't used all their available substitutes.
Currently a player who receives 2 yellows is sent off and the non-offending team plays against 10 for the remainder.

This new system goes against that principle.

Players sent off for 2 non-dissent yellows will give the non-offending team a player advantage.

This is 2 tier justice. Different outcomes for similar ill-discipline.

The leagues i referee on have revolving subs.
 

es1

RefChat Addict
#8
The principal I don't mind, I just think the execution is wrong.

Sub commits a dissent offence = No sin bin and can be subbed on immediately

I'd be including SPA yellows as well for sin bins, give players a reason not to do it. A yellow isn't enough.

Going to be fun officiating at level 4 with this next year
 

lincs22

Supply League Observer
Staff member
Observer/Tutor
#9
The principal I don't mind, I just think the execution is wrong.

Sub commits a dissent offence = No sin bin and can be subbed on immediately

I'd be including SPA yellows as well for sin bins, give players a reason not to do it. A yellow isn't enough.

Going to be fun officiating at level 4 with this next year
I will ask Geoff to give me your first match next season.......
 

zarathustra

RefChat Addict
#11
Your CFA should be organising some training seminars. Check your CFA website for details.
I'm already booked on mine, but I don't need tips on how the laws works etc, more on tips and tricks which can make managing the sinbins easier etc.

Things people have picked up through using them, not just what is on some boring FA power point
 

one

RefChat Addict
#12
To support Brian's post
1556109153365.png

For me a better system would be to just add 10 minutes bin time to what was already in place pre sin bin and remove the complex stuff of if first offence do this, if second offence do that, if third offence this...

The only other thing i'd like all FA's to include as Sin Bin is simulation. Dissent and diving are the two ugly and unpleasant things to watch in the game with inadequate punishment.
 
#13
Practical advice and very welcome.

Small point, it's either dissent or it's not. If it's dissent, caution for it. If it's not, then don't. Don't use the stepped approach for dissent. You can use it for player protests, but once the player crosses the boundary and commits an act of dissent, caution. Likewise, don't use the sin bin as a means of avoiding a red card for OFFINABUS. The training from The FA homed in on this point... OFFINABUS is not dissent and deserves a red card, not 10 minutes cooling of the heels.
I agree. Maybe my use of the term stepped approach was misinterpretated. Firstly if its OFFINABUS, that is 100% red. Sin bins or not. I meant as in game management wise, small things can be interpretated as dissent or not. If you see signs of dissent occurring or frustration building, still try to manage it. Have a word with the player, ask the captain to tell him to quiet down, try to deal with it still as we would normally. Dont just shove him in the sin bin for disagreeing with a decision which is how it has been interprettated by some referees. Sin bins have to be used effectively to work. They can work if used correctly.
 

RefJef

RefChat Addict
#15
Can you sin-bin a substitute for dissent? What would be the point as there is no penalty to a non-playing dissenter!
Trying to remember from my sin bin training last week (too lazy to get up & check my notes!) but I think in this instance you would yellow card the sub for dissent and it would “count” as a yellow card (I.e. 2nd yellow on bench for dissent or in game for non dissent offence and they get a red) and would also get a fine. I.e., it would be treated like a yellow card for, say, foul tackle.

The idea is is that for dissent (for player, not sub) the player gets an in game sanction (10 mins loss of playing time), player doesn’t get a £10 fine for a sin bin YC.

My sin bin training was good, made a lot of sense, an hour well spent.
 
#16
Can you sin-bin a substitute for dissent? What would be the point as there is no penalty to a non-playing dissenter!
No, will be a “normal” C2 caution. I believe you will have to state a reason why you didn’t sin bin the player - in this case he was a sub.

Interestingly I have been working with sin bins this season on a Step 7 league and there is without doubt less dissent, in fact only “binned” three players in 20 games compared with 10 in other leagues not using it (from a similar number of games). Having said that the last time I binned a player it went from sin bin to OFFINABUS through to abandonment within 30 secs :confused:
 

JamesL

RefChat Addict
#17
No, will be a “normal” C2 caution. I believe you will have to state a reason why you didn’t sin bin the player - in this case he was a sub.

Interestingly I have been working with sin bins this season on a Step 7 league and there is without doubt less dissent, in fact only “binned” three players in 20 games compared with 10 in other leagues not using it (from a similar number of games). Having said that the last time I binned a player it went from sin bin to OFFINABUS through to abandonment within 30 secs :confused:
What you doing binning players in leagues not operating temporary dismissals ;)
 
#18
I umpired hockey for ten years where you go green, yellow, red and any yellow was a sin bin. Started football this season and youth was no bins, adult was for C2.

I love them, brilliant. I often step by giving (where relevant/possible) an IDK FK for dissent first. Get odd questions from players about the legality of that, but often it's enough. Generally the bin is used in my poorest games, ref well and you don't get dissent.

The bin card should be blue, not yellow. Think that way and it helps.

Definitely write the time down, particularly time back on. I find it sticks in my brain if I've written it down. Or get a posh watch that does it all for you.

Once you've given a bin the players self police. Except the thick ones....

Game I did a few weeks back I gave a C2 yellow, player apologised after the game for the dissent. Coach said I was the first ref in three months to use the bin but they approved. Following week I did a L1 academy U16 game with no bin, gave a C2 yellow as two players argued over who took a penalty and I had to intervene then 2 minutes later a second yellow for a wild tackle from the same player. With a bin that would never happen as he would have calmed down - that is another reason I am a fan.
 

Big Cat

RefChat Addict
#19
To support Brian's post
View attachment 3436

For me a better system would be to just add 10 minutes bin time to what was already in place pre sin bin and remove the complex stuff of if first offence do this, if second offence do that, if third offence this...

The only other thing i'd like all FA's to include as Sin Bin is simulation. Dissent and diving are the two ugly and unpleasant things to watch in the game with inadequate punishment.
Only trouble is, simulation is a tip of the ice berg thing and we wont be seeing sin bins at that level because football needs the precious cheats on FOP
 
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JamesL

RefChat Addict
#20
Game I did a few weeks back I gave a C2 yellow, player apologised after the game for the dissent. Coach said I was the first ref in three months to use the bin but they approved. Following week I did a L1 academy U16 game with no bin, gave a C2 yellow as two players argued over who took a penalty and I had to intervene then 2 minutes later a second yellow for a wild tackle from the same player. With a bin that would never happen as he would have calmed down - that is another reason I am a fan.
2 players arguing over whom is taking the restart is not dissent.
Dissent is public disagreement with a match official's decision.
The referee does not decide who takes pens. Therefore this cannot be dissent. Two players arguing either requires captain/coach to step in and make the decision to de escalate the argument Or they are adopting an aggressive attitude and you caution for C1.
Either way, in your scenario, would have resulted in a permanent dismissal or just 1 caution with the laws applied correctly.
 
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