Junior/Youth U18 cup final

[DB]

So there I was, enjoying my time on the line in last nights cup final. Half time whistle blows. Lovely.

We walk back out and get the game underway. Greens (attacking), Blues (defending). The ball has been pumped upfield by the greens goalie, the drop zone is ten yards inside the blues half and about ten yards out from myself. Green and blue both jump to challenge. Green looks at the ball, then the player, then the ball again... He bundles over the blue, referee looks at me and I give the signal for the free kick (to blue). Player reacts angrily. "What are you on about lino". "Player, you've gone through the back of him".... "But I wasn't even facing the ball". "Which is why you've gone through the back of him".... I look at him, he looks at me.. there's a pause... he's thinking... "Ah f**k off lino".... He then throws his arm up in the air and turns his back to me... The little tinker!!

I flag the ref over, he approaches and turns next to me, facing the field of play. I explain what was said. "It's your call DB". "Red, all day long". "you sure"?. "Absolutely. I won't be spoken to like that, in that situation!" Player gets dismissed (he's unhappy). A few shouts from the crowd on my side, nothing like I expected though. They obviously heard it. The rest of the game, not a peep.

10 minutes before full time, it's 1-1. Referee awards a penalty. I remember his pre match briefing regarding the procedure. Before the ball is kicked, the keeper is 4 yards off his line and subsequently saves the shot. I flag, penalty retaken. Keeper does exactly the same thing but the ball goes in the net. Queue the shouts from the bench.

Greens went on to win 3-1 with 10 men.

You know what annoys me? As a player, I don't put myself in these situations. If I did, I would accept whatever disciplinary sanction came my way. But the guys I've been officiating recently just seem to have no regard whatsoever for their own actions.

There's a few ways that you can get away with telling me to f-off. In the instant I blow the whistle, if it is frustration, I will manage it. A quick word and maybe a caution would be suffice depending on the nature of the player. Perfectly manageable situation. Absolutely depends on the nature of it. But I certainly won't tolerate being told to f-off when I am in conversation with the player and the incident had passed. That is completely manageable by the player.

All parties at the game agreed with my my "match-changing" decisions. The ref, asst, 4th official (RDO) and the head of the youth competition who was behind the goal for the penalties. Yet, it was me that ruined the game. The penalty was to even it out... Y'know, all that rubbish!

 

[Padfoot]

And therein lies the double standards that we referees create for ourselves, that eventually end up causing us problems.

Accept 'f#ck off' in one moment, and then dismiss for it in the next. Unfortunately the average player, when between the white lines, doesn't possess the intelligence to grasp the subtle differences between the two.

Not saying that you were wrong, or right, just commenting on the way that it can cause confusion.
That player would probably claim that he was frustrated when he said it.....and no doubt he probably was....so how do you explain to that player that if he had said it immediately the whistle went instead of waiting 10 seconds he would still be on the pitch?

 

[Matthew]

And therein lies the double standards that we referees create for ourselves, that eventually end up causing us problems.

Accept 'f#ck off' in one moment, and then dismiss for it in the next. Unfortunately the average player, when between the white lines, doesn't possess the intelligence to grasp the subtle differences between the two.

Not saying that you were wrong, or right, just commenting on the way that it can cause confusion.
That player would probably claim that he was frustrated when he said it.....and no doubt he probably was....so how do you explain to that player that if he had said it immediately the whistle went instead of waiting 10 seconds he would still be on the pitch?

What it comes down to, for me at least, lies within the thought process of the player; if that was said immediately after the whistle, it was frustration, but this scenario suggests to me that the player considered a response before coming out with "f*** off". An instant, frustrated f*** or f*** off is one thing, but this is very different.

You're spot on about the confusion though, this comes down to the majority of players not having the common sense to understand the difference.

 

[DB]

@Padfoot that was exactly the response I was expecting. I completely agree. But in my eyes, it's all about the context and situation. Crikey, if we card everyone that we heard swear, we'd abandon after five minutes!

These players (the majority) all play senior football down here. Unfortunately it is becoming the norm to verbally abuse the officials; I'm sure you've heard in the papers and on here about Marcus Martin? An ex Exeter City striker who got a referee in a headlock, threw him on the floor and threatened him only two weeks ago. It is this sort of behaviour that these kids are seeing that is having an influence on their behaviour.

With my backround and my military bearing, I will not accept being told to f-off in that manner. You know what I mean though about situations and context, it's not one of the "yhtbt" scenarios. It's something we experience multiple times each game. It's just a shame this guy ruined his moment in a cup final. But, that isn't my fault.

 

[Russell Jones]

Accept 'f#ck off' in one moment, and then dismiss for it in the next. Unfortunately the average player, when between the white lines, doesn't possess the intelligence to grasp the subtle differences between the two.

Totally agree, some players will always struggle with any 'nuances'. However, I remain firmly in the 'situation and context' camp. We've all heard the stat about "80% of communication is non-verbal". Whether this is completely accurate or not, the fact remains that the same words but said in a different way, at a different time and at a different volume, have a very different meaning ...

 

[Padfoot]

So...my question remains.....how do you explain to that player that the 10 seconds or so between the whistle blowing and his comment, has been the difference between him staying on the pitch or not?

If we are going to referee to these subtle nuances of timing and context, surely we have to be able to explain it to players? Maybe not at the time, but certainly at some point, if we are asked the question.

"You can tell me to f*ck off immediately on the whistle because that's frustration, but if we have a brief chat about the decision and then you tell me to f*ck off thats not acceptable..."
"But i was frustrated that you didn't see it the same way that i did..."
"errrr...yes. but delayed frustration won't be tolerated.....only spontaneous and immediate frustration...."
"What?"

 

[DB]

Simply put, I wouldn't explain it to the player. "You've told me to f**k off, you're being dismissed". No ifs, no buts.
I had one last week, balls goes out of play, I award a corner. "ahh **** off man" literally as the whistle blew. "Player, that is my decision. The ball has clearly ricocheted off your foot, I'm in a clear position with an unrestricted view. Accept my decision". It was aimed at me because I blew the whistle, it was in frustration and in an immediate response to my whistle. I accept that. I've played long enough and been in that situation long enough to know it's not personal and it is purely frustration.

Let's not be a smart arse here, I know for a fact you know where I'm going with this thread. You know the difference between frustration and OFFINABUS.

 

[Padfoot]

Simply put, I wouldn't explain it to the player. "You've told me to f**k off, you're being dismissed". No ifs, no buts.
I had one last week, balls goes out of play, I award a corner. "ahh **** off man" literally as the whistle blew. "Player, that is my decision. The ball has clearly ricocheted off your foot, I'm in a clear position with an unrestricted view. Accept my decision". It was aimed at me because I blew the whistle, it was in frustration and in an immediate response to my whistle. I accept that. I've played long enough and been in that situation long enough to know it's not personal and it is purely frustration.

Let's not be a smart arse here, I know for a fact you know where I'm going with this thread. You know the difference between frustration and OFFINABUS.

So then 1 minute later when an opposition player tells you to f*ck off as you blow the whistle.......cue pandemonium from the dismissed players team mates because you don't send them off.

If you can't explain it to the players, then you have no chance of retaining credibility.........

I understand the difference between frustration, dissent and OFFINABUS, but players don't.......but as referee's we have to be able to explain that difference if asked....doesn't have to be on the FOP.....

But ultimately it is a massive case of double standards......the player that tells you f*ck off after 10 seconds is every bit as frustrated as the player that says it at the whistle......we just dress it up differently to justify our own different reactions to the same thing.
Of course the "f*ck off" at the whistle is personal.....unless someone else has blown the whistle for you?

Not saying that I would do it any differently, but lets at least do it with our eyes open.......its the same thing, but we feel comfortable accepting the abuse when its immediate because we can tell ourselves its "frustration" but then we feel its "personal" if a players expresses the same frustration after our own internal clock has ran down on what we consider "immediate".......

 

[DB]

I get what your saying... It's difficult to explain on text as I'm sure you'd appreciate. Much easier to sell on a vocal basis, as I did last night.

 

[ref craig]

Really I cannot complain it's directed and personally cannot be managed it's just a shame that he could not keep his opinion to himself as he has spoilt a game completely all one silly thing

 

[CapnBloodbeard]

Padfoot's gripe seems to be similar to mine. This notion of managing the players, that we should accept abusive comments in some situations? It's absolute BS. We're all victims of this culture - and we all perpetuate it. But there's no reason to have anything other than zero tolerance. It's only because we have this culture where the referees are responsible for everything and players responsible for nothing that we've come up with this laughable idea that a f*** off said in frustration is nothing whereas if it was a bit later, or the player looks at us, then it's a thousand times more sinister.

DB's decision sounds correct to me. He's made a conscious decision to tell DB to F*** off. Even to the point of including the word 'lino'. That's abusive language.

 

[DB]

So, you act on every single swear word, in every single game and in every single situation?

It's hard to put my point across via text.

 

[CapnBloodbeard]

So, you act on every single swear word, in every single game and in every single situation?

It's hard to put my point across via text.

I have no idea which poster or comment you're responding to - but it certainly reads like a strawman so far.

 

[Brian Hamilton]

Hi Mr Spanner here.

I would not have expected a dismissal for a single "swear" word and an obvious act of dissent (arm throwing). I am concerned that the AR didn't think anyone should speak to him like that?

On my lunch half hour and typing on my phone BUT I think this is a dissent caution all day long

 

[CapnBloodbeard]

I think you definitely need to repost that when you have a keyboard, Brian, because I'm concerned that you think it's fine for somebody to, with forethought, tell the AR to 'f*** off lino'. And given your apparent concern at DB's thoughts that he shouldn't be spoken to like that, it's what you've implied in your post.

 

[DB]

Hi Mr Spanner here.

I would not have expected a dismissal for a single "swear" word and an obvious act of dissent (arm throwing). I am concerned that the AR didn't think anyone should speak to him like that?

On my lunch half hour and typing on my phone BUT I think this is a dissent caution all day long

I should expect to be spoken to like that and it's okay?

No chance! By telling me to f**k off, this is as clear reason to dismiss for S6 as any. I'm a little disappointed in your response here Bryan if I'm honest with you. Out of everyone on here, I expected both yourself and Mr Foot to agree with the action taken. Red. Do not pass go blah blah

There's so much transparency between people on this forum. For one person it's okay, for the next it's not? I just don't get it. There's no continuity at all.

 

[Russell Jones]

Padfoot's gripe seems to be similar to mine. This notion of managing the players, that we should accept abusive comments in some situations? It's absolute BS. We're all victims of this culture - and we all perpetuate it. But there's no reason to have anything other than zero tolerance. It's only because we have this culture where the referees are responsible for everything and players responsible for nothing that we've come up with this laughable idea that a f*** off said in frustration is nothing whereas if it was a bit later, or the player looks at us, then it's a thousand times more sinister.

DB's decision sounds correct to me. He's made a conscious decision to tell DB to F*** off. Even to the point of including the word 'lino'. That's abusive language.

Think there's a consensus appearing that DB's decision was correct in this instance. However, I had a situation last night that for me perfectly illustrates why it's not black and white and IMO it would be 'BS' to treat it as such.

On the line for a training game for a local WSL side. Long ball played into 'my' corner and all the players assume it's going for a GK except one attacker who sprints 50 yards in the hope of keeping it in. I sprint alongside to get down to the goal line and get there in time to see the ball JUST go out. As soon as I flag she looks in my direction from 2 yards away and quietly / unaggressively says "Oh, f**k off". Didn't worry me in the slightest, certainly wasn't offended and was confident I'd have reacted the same way if I'd just lost out on a promising attack after a 50 yard sprint by all of about 6 inches! If we send off for something like that then I think we create a divide between ourselves and the players and make our lives harder in the long run.

Oh, and Padfoot, the explanation I regularly give players is "It's not just what is said, it's also how it's said". Doesn't always work but a) it's the truth and b) it's simple

 

[DB]

Russell, exactly. That's frustration there, running all that way and not getting the desired outcome. The profanity not aimed at you. this guy looked at me, paused and then said it. Massive difference. Crikey, I swear when I play. I'm just mindful, respectful and have a bit of discipline about me

 

[Padfoot]

Think there's a consensus appearing that DB's decision was correct in this instance. However, I had a situation last night that for me perfectly illustrates why it's not black and white and IMO it would be 'BS' to treat it as such.

On the line for a training game for a local WSL side. Long ball played into 'my' corner and all the players assume it's going for a GK except one attacker who sprints 50 yards in the hope of keeping it in. I sprint alongside to get down to the goal line and get there in time to see the ball JUST go out. As soon as I flag she looks in my direction from 2 yards away and quietly / unaggressively says "Oh, f**k off". Didn't worry me in the slightest, certainly wasn't offended and was confident I'd have reacted the same way if I'd just lost out on a promising attack after a 50 yard sprint by all of about 6 inches! If we send off for something like that then I think we create a divide between ourselves and the players and make our lives harder in the long run.

Oh, and Padfoot, the explanation I regularly give players is "It's not just what is said, it's also how it's said". Doesn't always work but a) it's the truth and b) it's simple

Don't you find that the "f*ck off" given in frustration as the whistle goes, tends to be louder and more aggressive then the one that might be given after a brief delay and/or chat about it?

Certainly in my experience the "frustrated" shouts that occur immediately the whistle goes tend to be much louder and vehment then something that takes place almost at conversational level........so are we telling players that its actually ok to shout foul language in an agressive manner but say the same thing 10 seconds later at a normal talking volume and we'll send them off?

 

[Padfoot]

I should expect to be spoken to like that and it's okay?

No chance! By telling me to f**k off, this is as clear reason to dismiss for S6 as any. I'm a little disappointed in your response here Bryan if I'm honest with you. Out of everyone on here, I expected both yourself and Mr Foot to agree with the action taken. Red. Do not pass go blah blah

There's so much transparency between people on this forum. For one person it's okay, for the next it's not? I just don't get it. There's no continuity at all.

You'll notice, i hope, that i have pointedly avoided making a judgment on your specific scenario in terms of whether or not i agree with your point of view. If I am totally honest, i can see both sides of the argument, and ultimately the referee made the decision.
Personally, in that situation, i would not be asking the AR what they wanted done about it, i would be asking for the facts of what ocurred then would make my own decision on how to proceed. After all, the assistant is there is to assist not insist.
The only option that would be totally incorrect is to do nothing, whether you caution for dissent or dismiss for s6, either of those 2 is supporting the AR. And i can see arguments for both outcomes.

Russell, exactly. That's frustration there, running all that way and not getting the desired outcome. The profanity not aimed at you. this guy looked at me, paused and then said it. Massive difference. Crikey, I swear when I play. I'm just mindful, respectful and have a bit of discipline about me

Did someone else put the flag up and signal ball out of play? Of course its personal.....you're the person who's just stopped play, correctly, because ball had gone out!