The Ref Stop

Unintentional violent conduct...

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es1

RefChat Addict
@GraemeS, @JamesL, @RustyRef

Further to the discussion in the other thread...anyone seen soucek get sent off by Mike Dean?

Looks to me like he's jostling for position at a free kick and the contact (elbow to head) is accidental.

I know I know, intent means nowt, but a red there seems harsh...And is it really a clear and obvious error!?!?

Sky have just said mason recommended the review as soucek had a clenched fist...make of that what you will

I'll post a video when I find one!
 
The Ref Stop
es1 said:
@GraemeS, @JamesL, @RustyRef

Further to the discussion in the other thread...anyone seen soucek get sent off by Mike Dean?

Looks to me like he's jostling for position at a free kick and the contact (elbow to head) is accidental.

I know I know, intent means nowt, but a red there seems harsh...And is it really a clear and obvious error!?!?

Sky have just said mason recommended the review as soucek had a clenched fist...make of that what you will

I'll post a video when I find one!
Click to expand...
Surely intent is 100% relevant for violent conduct?
 
It was very obvious that Mike Dean did not want to go red here, and another example of no one knowing what a clear and obvious error is. He was looking straight at it real time and immediately blew his whistle to stop the corner being taken so there is no suggestion that he didn't see the incident.

The problem here is with Lee Mason, how on earth has he watched that multiple times and deemed it VC? I wouldn't be at all surprised if PGMOL have told the referees not to go against the advice of VAR if they are sent to watch it on the screen. This is a mess, and is likely to be another situation where VAR has intervened and the decision will be overturned on appeal.

I really feel sorry for Mike Dean here, he is going to get the blame but it was obvious from his body language and the amount of time he took looking at the screen that he didn't want to go red. Yet again I say it is not the technology that is at fault, rather the guidance and directives of how to use it.
 
Quote from the laws...

a player who, when not challenging for the ball, deliberately strikes an opponent or any other person on the head or face with the hand or arm, is guilty of violent conduct unless the force used was negligible.

Key word for me has to be deliberate. There's absolutely no way this is.
 
es1 said:
Quote from the laws...

a player who, when not challenging for the ball, deliberately strikes an opponent or any other person on the head or face with the hand or arm, is guilty of violent conduct unless the force used was negligible.

Key word for me has to be deliberate. There's absolutely no way this is.
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I’d also argue that the force was negligible. Mitrovic’s reaction no doubt makes it look a lot worse than it was.
 
RustyRef said:
I really feel sorry for Mike Dean
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I don't
It's really unimaginable that our Elite colleagues can make such an arse of these incidents. I think we all lose respect (transcending to grass-roots) when the football community are left floored time and time again. I'm not Ref Bashing intentionally, It just leaves me puzzled as to why overall refereeing standards are so poor. It's another subject, but there has to be something really quite wrong with how referees progress and are developed
On-field Refereeing has gone downhill with VAR complicating affairs. Perhaps that's the mitigating fact with all of this
MD was a better R without VAR... absolutely no doubt
 
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es1 said:
Quote from the laws...

a player who, when not challenging for the ball, deliberately strikes an opponent or any other person on the head or face with the hand or arm, is guilty of violent conduct unless the force used was negligible.

Key word for me has to be deliberate. There's absolutely no way this is.
Click to expand...
You have been selective in quoting the law - the previous paragraph does not require that the act be deliberate.
 
I really feel sorry for Mike Dean.........Not for me.. Dean has been in the game long enough, he could have viewed the monitor and said No to the red card, it was so obvious that Soucek was just lifting his arm to avoid it being held....not deliberate and not even reckless for me.
 
st john said:
I really feel sorry for Mike Dean.........Not for me.. Dean has been in the game long enough, he could have viewed the monitor and said No to the red card, it was so obvious that Soucek was just lifting his arm to avoid it being held....not deliberate and not even reckless for me.
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Maybe @RustyRef has a point on reflection. If Dean didn't have PGMOL pulling his strings and Mason in his ear, this farce would never have happened in a million years. Maybe he has been in the game for too long, but then he's hardly being outshone by those coming through the system. Without VAR, he was once an outstanding referee. I can't make sense of it all
 
RustyRef said:
I really feel sorry for Mike Dean here, he is going to get the blame but it was obvious from his body language and the amount of time he took looking at the screen that he didn't want to go red.
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that doesn’t make sense to me. If he didn’t want to go red, then why go red? If you’re just going to side with your mate in the VAR booth then why bother looking at the screen in the first place?
 
his reaction reminds me of a game earlier on in the season involving him. VAR gives a pen that he clearly doesn’t think is a pen and he shrugs his shoulders and points to the spot. I forget the game unfortunately
 
QuaverRef said:
that doesn’t make sense to me. If he didn’t want to go red, then why go red? If you’re just going to side with your mate in the VAR booth then why bother looking at the screen in the first place?
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Because they are told by their bosses to go with the VAR recommendation. Remember that PGMOL didn't want the monitors used at all, they are little more than a token gesture to prove to FIFA that they are using VAR correctly.
 
Degnann said:
his reaction reminds me of a game earlier on in the season involving him. VAR gives a pen that he clearly doesn’t think is a pen and he shrugs his shoulders and points to the spot. I forget the game unfortunately
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That was last year when we had the nonsense of the VAR basically telling the referee what the final decision was as it saves time from going to the monitor which went against VAR protocol. It was in the Arsenal Watford game on the final day, MD reaction there said it all and I'm sure Lee Mason was VAR that day also!

MD could of thought it was just a yellow as contact was not that strong, I don't think he was backed into a corner as such because intent does not come into it but surely force does. Yet again though, no one is going to condem Mitrovic's reaction, it was ridiculas.

Either way, the Mike Dean/Lee Mason combo has to come to an end and pair them with different referees.
 
RustyRef said:
Because they are told by their bosses to go with the VAR recommendation. Remember that PGMOL didn't want the monitors used at all, they are little more than a token gesture to prove to FIFA that they are using VAR correctly.
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But surely VAR recommendations are just another Refs view of an incident......Dean can still say NO having watched the footage himself and then discussed it Mason after the match.
If West Ham appeal it will be interesting to see the outcome with Dean having one overturned already this week
 
RustyRef said:
Because they are told by their bosses to go with the VAR recommendation. Remember that PGMOL didn't want the monitors used at all, they are little more than a token gesture to prove to FIFA that they are using VAR correctly.
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If they've actually told refs that, then they absolutely are not using VAR properly. Shocking. :eek:

But I do think there is another option on why he looked reluctant. It is also possible that it's a red based on how PGMOL is telling them to apply, and he thinks its a poor standard but his hands are tied.
 
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