A&H

What do you do.....?

RefJef said:
I think it may be time for me to take a break from here.

I really do detest the phrase LWR, too often a simple shorthand for "I'm not prepared to discuss, or engage in a rational conversation".

In a forum like this, the nuances of communication are lost as we a forced to rely entirely on a few written words; all inflexion, body language, tone etc. that we normally rely on in human interaction is lost.

I wrote my post in the hope of sparking a discussion about how to modify behaviour, but as all anyone seems to want to say is "Red card, move on" and woe betide anyone who might want to explore different approaches, I shall keep my thoughts to myself.

We may as well just stick to two post threads: OP posts leading questing, next poster replies with stock answer, aren't we all good boys, end of thread.
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Your choice on whether to stay or move on, HOWEVER, you cannot ignore VC at any age in any circumstances. Your post didn't suggest the invitation to a discussion on behaviour modification; it reads as though you would seriously request a substitution for an act of VC... body language, inflexion, etc. nothing comes close to explaining how your post could otherwise be construed.

LWR means taking the easy path to avoid confrontation and as a result let the rest of the refereeing community down. As for your interpretation, if the cap fits...

For all other forum users, any grabbing action around the throat is an immediate dismissal for VC.

Going back to the OP and @Padfoot subsequent comment, hopefully the referee will develop over the summer and if they embark on the promotion trail next season, they gain useful feedback and re-direction on what they should do in this situation.
 
The Referee Store
@RefJef I understand where you're coming from with wanting to spark a debate/conversation.

Unfortunately VC (which grabbing someone around the throat certainly is) must be punished with a red card and the monetary fine and ban that comes with it.

What we don't correct we condone, and if players don't learn at this age group that this is simply unacceptable them they'll keep doing it.

I'd say there's an argument that perhaps you might let players in younger age groups get subbed before they get a card for persistent infringement, or if they're just about to cross over the line into dissent for example (I don't do youth football so it's never come up for me) but this isn't one of those times.
 
Red for VC
Captain dependent on how he intervened as it isn't described will give appropriate sanction if required. However from @Padfoot's comments I am guessing he didn't do anything wrong. Don't we all lean on here and in our games?
 
a year ago we had exactly that at my sons' U15 game where i was spectating and our striker is a little hotheaded to say the least ... flew off the handle at a pretty innocuous tackle, and he grabbed the tackler by the throat. As the ref was trying to sort things out, our manager has strode onto the FOP to ask if he can be subbed. Ref allowed it.
i said to him (manager) after, that he was wrong to have walked onto the pitch to start with, and should have left him to be red carded, if that was what he was going to do, as Little Jonny would not learn. i was a bit disappointed in the ref, but i didnt say anything , i didnt feel it was my place to.
 
The captains actions.....he ran approx 20 yds and basically inserted his body in between the 2 players, hand on each chest pushing them apart.......once separated led his player away.

Part of me wonders if the referee simply got the 2 players mixed up and cautioned the captain believing him to be the original blue player......
 
Perhaps @RefJef was describing what action he would take at an Academy game...

@Padfoot I was going to warn you against refereeing your son's games, until I read about the lack of action (and therefore clearly not yourself in the middle)!
 
RefJef said:
I think it may be time for me to take a break from here.

I really do detest the phrase LWR, too often a simple shorthand for "I'm not prepared to discuss, or engage in a rational conversation".

In a forum like this, the nuances of communication are lost as we a forced to rely entirely on a few written words; all inflexion, body language, tone etc. that we normally rely on in human interaction is lost.

I wrote my post in the hope of sparking a discussion about how to modify behaviour, but as all anyone seems to want to say is "Red card, move on" and woe betide anyone who might want to explore different approaches, I shall keep my thoughts to myself.

We may as well just stick to two post threads: OP posts leading questing, next poster replies with stock answer, aren't we all good boys, end of thread.
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@RefJef not really sure what response you were expecting? @Ross had already asked us not to turn this into another debate about cards vs age, which is probably why most people have made their responses short and to the point.

I don't think that you can ever justify failing to sanction VC correctly and then calling it "behaviour modification".....although.....shock confession time......about 6 yrs ago I allowed a player to be subbed rather than red card them for VC.
It was an U8's match (still not sure how I ended doing that....probably as a favour to someone) and an attacker had go in for a perfectly legitimate 50/50 challenge with a GK, but while the GK won the ball, while they were both on the floor, the attacker petulantly flicked a foot out towards the GK, catching him in the side of the head.
GK burst into tears, attacker looked mortified at what he had done......attackers manager calling immediately for a sub......I made sure the GK was getting treatment.....took the attacker to one side....explained how wrong he was to do what he had done.....he was bawling his eyes out.....and in that moment, using my experience as a father of two, I knew that a red card would teach this kid absolutely nothing more than he had already learned......his manager was horrified by what had happened, so were this kids parents, so I allowed him to be subbed, not to come back on again.

Moment of weakness? Maybe.....moment of humanity? I'd like to think so.......

Would I do it with u15's? Not a chance.
 
Ejected 2 players in first 5 minutes of an OA game for similar thing, the only difference being they both had their hands round each other's necks.

For the rest of the game both teams suggested I had ruined the game

You can not win sometimes
 
Paul March said:
Ejected 2 players in first 5 minutes of an OA game for similar thing, the only difference being they both had their hands round each other's necks.

For the rest of the game both teams suggested I had ruined the game

You can not win sometimes
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All your fault ref for applying the LOTG!

@Padfoot did you just say moment of humanity and didn't issue a red card? :confused: Not sure what I am more shocked at you being human or not issuing the card? :p
 
RefJef said:
I think it may be time for me to take a break from here.

I really do detest the phrase LWR, too often a simple shorthand for "I'm not prepared to discuss, or engage in a rational conversation".

In a forum like this, the nuances of communication are lost as we a forced to rely entirely on a few written words; all inflexion, body language, tone etc. that we normally rely on in human interaction is lost.

I wrote my post in the hope of sparking a discussion about how to modify behaviour, but as all anyone seems to want to say is "Red card, move on" and woe betide anyone who might want to explore different approaches, I shall keep my thoughts to myself.

We may as well just stick to two post threads: OP posts leading questing, next poster replies with stock answer, aren't we all good boys, end of thread.
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Or perhaps you're just not prepared to consider that your approach is just wrong and lets the game down?

Permitting a substitution in place of a red card for violent conduct really makes a mockery of the game.....and I'd be seriously ticked off if I was the other team or one of their parents!!

There's room for creativity in some instances. The substitution when you're considering a borderline yellow card is a good case of it. But when there's a clear red card offence?

Nuh-uh.

You know that some teams will try to do the sneaky sub in these situations for this exact reason, right?

The coach of the offending player - and the offending player himself - would be laughing all the way to the bank, so to speak.
 
Padfoot said:
The captains actions.....he ran approx 20 yds and basically inserted his body in between the 2 players, hand on each chest pushing them apart.......once separated led his player away.

Part of me wonders if the referee simply got the 2 players mixed up and cautioned the captain believing him to be the original blue player......
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This is what i would expect a captain to do, isn't that what we expect of him? Within the laws of the game of course......
 
Ok here's a take on some of the discussions; 2 incidents which I will rely and pls don't crucify me just yet!

1st game: Youth game U-14 (academy) Blues are on a counter attack breaking away number 5 near the penalty area with 2 orange players crossing from his right to close him off so no clear shot at goal just yet; still time and distance for the blues to close him off. Orange number 15 tackles him from behind, never the ball always the man and he knows it. not excessive force, but catches blues number 5 high on his calf. I had him isolated and gave myself some few precious minutes to think, i cautioned him knowing had he been older it would be a straight red. My thinking is, it's a development game and I want him to learn but then again.... Neither Coach complained we had a chat after the game and explained my actions and thinking process to both and asked the oranges coach to have a stern word and warning. I'm still beating myself over this, although in fairness the blues coach said he believes it was the smart decision on the day and supports my call. Any thoughts?
 
So 2nd game:

OA, reds vs blues, blues are a youthful side while the reds have a few experts who are well seasoned in the arts of the trade. Reds winning and blues are well battling this game, blues attacking in the corner I'm running full speed behind the attack and in full view of what's unfolding. Blues number 16 tries to outmanoeuvre reds number 8, as he gets cornered, I shout out loud "Nothing silly in there boys, keep it clean" a tip i picked up when you have such situations to let them know you are close hopefully deterring anyone trying to pull sth silly off. As the blues #16 loses the ball to a goal kick he is clearly angry with #8. I didn't see #8 commit anything, sheilding the ball and using his body to keep #16 away. Blues #16 goes for the neck and face, grabbing and punching, #8 gets out of the way.

I'm close so loud whistles asking everyone to back off, isolate the man and dish out RC. I give number 8 a YC too, as he did respond aggressively in my view pushing the kid away. No complaints from either side. However to my surprise the red team before i gave the kid any card were asking to dismiss the incident, "sand bags ref". Even afterwards they asked me not to send it with the reds manager asking me to forgive the offending blues player as he is still a young lad (U-17).
 
richard ramjane said:
umm i'm missing something... should have been red for.. ? 1st game i mean
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ok misworded there, i meant with excessive force so SFP (S1). I was trying to differentiate and explain that it wasn't a DOGSO. In hindsight you could say it was borderline, not too aggressive of a tackle but also not a simple trip to warrant a tactical foul. It was one of those fouls that don't sit right with you, thinking a YC isn't enough...
 
a
Nalbi said:
ok misworded there, i meant with excessive force so SFP (S1). I was trying to differentiate and explain that it wasn't a DOGSO. In hindsight you could say it was borderline, not too aggressive of a tackle but also not a simple trip to warrant a tactical foul. It was one of those fouls that don't sit right with you, thinking a YC isn't enough...
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ahh yes with you now... i'd still be going with red personally... if your first instinct is that he was conscious of his actions there and excessive force then he surely has to walk for that .
add to that the fact that his team mate was also in a better position to make a challenge makes that even more excessive as he doesnt need to challenge in the first place ?
U14s... thinking safety of the players... even if he's not injured the guy.... retaliation could come and then you'll have someone pipe up that if he'd have been sent off he wouldnt have been hurt in any backlash?
 
In my eyes that has hurt me red player off for violent player who has committed the foul if it is not worthy of a yellow a nice word with his captain present and thank the captain for coming in to brake it up
 
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