The Ref Stop

Ref course

ladbroke8745 said:
None of what I suggested is anywhere near what you are trying say, which I take as more sarcasm but off the road entirely.

I initially saw prices were high, that's what I came to discuss but seems like many like high prices. So in theory this "job" is only available to those that can genuinely afford it in the first place. No other "job" makes you pay for courses.
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Quite simply, not true.

Try becoming a doctor....

The course and equipment plays for its self after a couple of weeks then its all on the referees coffers. Based on what i have read in this thread the fees are too low. I dont think the referee recruitment is swung by finance.
 
The Ref Stop
JamesL said:
Quite simply, not true.

Try becoming a doctor....

The course and equipment plays for its self after a couple of weeks then its all on the referees coffers. Based on what i have read in this thread the fees are too low. I dont think the referee recruitment is swung by finance.
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Agreed. If 2nd year registration could be improved, the number of referees doing the course in the first place would be fine. The only reason there's an issue with referee numbers is that retention is so incredibly low - if I was in charge of improving referee coverage%, it's absolutely that number I'd be looking at rather than the number doing the course in the first place.
 
GraemeS said:
if I was in charge of improving referee coverage%, it's absolutely that number I'd be looking at rather than the number doing the course in the first place.
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To steer the discussion in that direction; How would you fix the retention numbers?

I already gave a list of issues, a lot of those aren't fixable, but the ones that are, how would you try to solve it?
 
GraemeS said:
Agreed. If 2nd year registration could be improved, the number of referees doing the course in the first place would be fine. The only reason there's an issue with referee numbers is that retention is so incredibly low - if I was in charge of improving referee coverage%, it's absolutely that number I'd be looking at rather than the number doing the course in the first place.
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Agree.
Part of the issue is that on the face of it, refereeing seems like easy money, especially if you are a teenager and it's that or a paper round. Most quickly find that it's actually not that easy after all and don't have the appetite to deal with it!
 
RobOda said:
To steer the discussion in that direction; How would you fix the retention numbers?

I already gave a list of issues, a lot of those aren't fixable, but the ones that are, how would you try to solve it?
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I think pretty much everything that can be done to effect retention is being done.

On the abuse side, you can't change how individuals behave. That's down to their character, upbringing and general attitude. That goes for both referees, players, coaches and parents. It's a sad fact that we now live in a society where "discipline" is considered something that older generations were subject to and that respect is something that should be given rather than earned.
On the face of it, we have a football player who is perhaps less disciplined in terms of personal behaviour and yet we have an expectation that that he will be more respectful towards a referee than his father/grandfather was before him.
How abuse is dealt with is laid down simply within the LOTG. Whether or not a referee has the character and personality to use what's there is again, down to their own individual constitution.

Paperwork - that should never be an issue(?) In the league I referee on Saturdays, there is none!! I simply have to go onto Whole Game and electronically input any cards I dished out during the match. On the other leagues I do I'm required to fill out an electronic match report which is basically just a box-ticking exercise so it's mostly already pre-filled in from the previous match. Why do you think there's lots of paperwork involved Rob? :)
 
Kes said:
I think pretty much everything that can be done to effect retention is being done.

On the abuse side, you can't change how individuals behave. That's down to their character, upbringing and general attitude. That goes for both referees, players, coaches and parents. It's a sad fact that we now live in a society where "discipline" is considered something that older generations were subject to and that respect is something that should be given rather than earned.
On the face of it, we have a football player who is perhaps less disciplined in terms of personal behaviour and yet we have an expectation that that he will be more respectful towards a referee than his father/grandfather was before him.
How abuse is dealt with is laid down simply within the LOTG. Whether or not a referee has the character and personality to use what's there is again, down to their own individual constitution.

Paperwork - that should never be an issue(?) In the league I referee on Saturdays, there is none!! I simply have to go onto Whole Game and electronically input any cards I dished out during the match. On the other leagues I do I'm required to fill out an electronic match report which is basically just a box-ticking exercise so it's mostly already pre-filled in from the previous match. Why do you think there's lots of paperwork involved Rob?
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I think a lot of people under estimate the level of commitment required by referees even at grass roots level. For various reasons some people can't make that commitment.
 
OIREF! said:
I think a lot of people under estimate the level of commitment required by referees even at grass roots level. For various reasons some people can't make that commitment.
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That's what I mean - I don't quite follow that. The way I see it, in terms of time allocated and personal commitment to match day, you're no more "committed" than you would be as player on the day. Most referees are ex players so what's the problem? (I don't mean that in an argumentative sort of way either btw. :) )
 
£115 in Hampshire - You had to do a minimum of 5 games to pass the course. Each returning £20-30 each. Not sure why that's a problem, or people are shocked you have to pay for a training course?
 
If I were in charge of retention I would be looking to promote/encourage opportunities to work as a team of three.

I enjoy refereeing as a hobby, but it can be a lonely hobby. This season I have been doing more games as an assistant- I prefer being in the middle to being on the line, but I have enjoyed the social aspect of working as a team of three - every two or three weeks I’ve been doing the line in a midweek league and it’s added a new dimension for me.

I suspect a lot may give up because, amongst the weeds of grass roots football, you are on your own and this can get a little dispiriting at times.
 
Kes said:
Why do you think there's lots of paperwork involved Rob?
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In Wales at grassroots there's still paper cautions, dismissal and misconduct forms. (We do have an option to do it online though). Plus team-sheets are paper form as well. I don't know if there might be other areas outside of the UK which have yet to switch to paper-less/online systems.

We're transitioning to the COMET system next season, which will move everything online (I think all the way down to grassroots) and dispense with the paperwork. I think it's the equivalent to England's Whole Game System? Early days though, only got an e-mail about it the other week!


RefJef said:
I suspect a lot may give up because, amongst the weeds of grass roots football, you are on your own and this can get a little dispiriting at times.
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I agree with you, it can be disheartening especially if you have tough games and no re-assurance you're doing okay.
 
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RobOda said:
To steer the discussion in that direction; How would you fix the retention numbers?

I already gave a list of issues, a lot of those aren't fixable, but the ones that are, how would you try to solve it?
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Make all new refs do a min number of games as assistants.
Move heaven and earth to get anyone promising (or with the potential to make year 2 and beyond) a mentor or at least assessed more than once.
Have some kind of academy program - and not just for youngsters - so late starters with potential (and jobs etc.) aren't missed.
Eliminate paperwork with online systems.
Come down extremely hard on ref abuse and report it transparently so refs know they are not alone.

My local lot - thanks to one guy's actions over 5-6 years in particular, but also because of a concentration of talent and resources - have pretty much nailed the first four.

There still seems to be some kind of stigma - probably related to league politics - about ref abuse, that feels like it is not actioned with enough thoroughness, urgency... perhaps the feeling is that by opening the couple of incidents a year it would adversely affect us... but I don't think so... I think some transparent publication about incidents and the resulting bans/fines/suspensions and support given would help refs feel they are not alone. (Admittedly not a big problem here though, unlike Blighty it seems...)
 
There is a clear stigma when it comes to young people and refereeing. That may or may not change in the future, but refereeing has to modernise to 'sell itself'. Referees aren't allowed to talk in the media and at local level they have to wear all black etc. Kids know the players and their characters, they follow their Instagrams and listen to their interviews. Mention a referees name to a 15 year old and they don't know anything about them and only hear about them when their decisions are being questioned on tv. It's all negative. Refereeing needs to sell itself by allowing refs to have public personas, allow coloured kits and boots etc. Let's get away from this notion of refs being the fun police in the black uniform. We often wonder why we csnt retain refs when in reality we are doing nothing to attract them other than the same things that have always been done.
 
Take Michael and Lucy Oliver for example. A marketing dream for the FA. Who better to promote refereeing to young people? And I don't just mean with the odd bit of internal PR that those that are already looking at refereeing will see. Allow them to become public figures if they want to.
 
The EPL and FA would prefer refs to be hung drawn and quartered on live TV with 30 cameras looking for involvement and feast on the spoils of the TV money.
 
Ben448844 said:
Take Michael and Lucy Oliver for example. A marketing dream for the FA. Who better to promote refereeing to young people? And I don't just mean with the odd bit of internal PR that those that are already looking at refereeing will see. Allow them to become public figures if they want to.
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Did you miss the abuse and threats directed at Michael and Lucy over a single decision at the end of last season? Has anyone asked them if they want to be "public figures"?
 
Brian Hamilton said:
Did you miss the abuse and threats directed at Michael and Lucy over a single decision at the end of last season? Has anyone asked them if they want to be "public figures"?
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I think what he meant was, the chance to referee at the Worlds best stadiums, share a pitch with the worlds best players, to be effectively paid a very good wage to be fit and healthy,

Maybe a lot of the reasons for abuse and threats is because the ref is simply that. The ref. He has no personality, no character, no feelings, no family, sometimes not even a name, just the ref. Total generic. Maybe if the ref was someone folk could relate to as an actual person then they might get treated a bit better.

"Be a referee like Micheal and you too could go to the World Cup finals, plus earn 100k per year for being fit" That would work for me.
 
Ciley Myrus said:
"Be a referee like Micheal and you too could go to the World Cup finals, plus earn 100k per year for being fit" That would work for me.
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Apart from the chances of doing that are miniscule. Without wanting to sound ****y, I was a very good referee, and a better assistant, but I found my level at L3 and was never going to get any higher bar a fluke assessment. The percentage chances of getting to Football League are very low, Premier League even lower, FIFA you have to be in the top 6 or 7 in the country, and World Cup finals you have the be the very best in the country.

Dangling the carrot of WC finals and a big salary probably isn't the way to get new referees into the game. Realistically there needs to be a natural passion for football and at least an interest in refereeing, otherwise they will be getting into it for the wrong reasons.
 
Brian Hamilton said:
Did you miss the abuse and threats directed at Michael and Lucy over a single decision at the end of last season? Has anyone asked them if they want to be "public figures"?
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Brian Hamilton said:
Did you miss the abuse and threats directed at Michael and Lucy over a single decision at the end of last season? Has anyone asked them if they want to be "public figures"?
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Is there a single sportsman, actor, singer, celebrity etc that doesn't receive horrendous abuse and worse? That's the reality of the society in which we live in unfortunately. But they have a choice to have social media accounts and promote themselves in any manner they see fit. Professional referees don't and therefore cannot communicate with the public, cannot sell themselves. They're restricted and that's self defeating for refereeing.
 
RustyRef said:
Apart from the chances of doing that are miniscule. Without wanting to sound ****y, I was a very good referee, and a better assistant, but I found my level at L3 and was never going to get any higher bar a fluke assessment. The percentage chances of getting to Football League are very low, Premier League even lower, FIFA you have to be in the top 6 or 7 in the country, and World Cup finals you have the be the very best in the country.

Dangling the carrot of WC finals and a big salary probably isn't the way to get new referees into the game. Realistically there needs to be a natural passion for football and at least an interest in refereeing, otherwise they will be getting into it for the wrong reasons.
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The chances of becoming a footballer are alot smaller but millions of kids want to be the next Harry Kane etc. Obviously reffing will never be as appealing as playing but it has to compete to attract participants like every other hobby. Refereeing has to be promoted and it isn't, certainly not in any way that young people find attractive. What are we doing different now to attract new refs? The perception of the referee is still a negative one and that's the biggest barrier to increased participation.
 
Ciley Myrus said:
I think what he meant was, the chance to referee at the Worlds best stadiums, share a pitch with the worlds best players, to be effectively paid a very good wage to be fit and healthy,

Maybe a lot of the reasons for abuse and threats is because the ref is simply that. The ref. He has no personality, no character, no feelings, no family, sometimes not even a name, just the ref. Total generic. Maybe if the ref was someone folk could relate to as an actual person then they might get treated a bit better.

"Be a referee like Micheal and you too could go to the World Cup finals, plus earn 100k per year for being fit" That would work for me.
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There are loads of positives which should be emphasised and promoted. Money, fitness, travel, teamwork etc. You have to communicate this in a way which kids find attractive. That's Instagram and Facebook etc. Not FA accounts that no kid will ever give two hoots about, celebrate refs as individuals. Get them on tv etc. There's genuine interest in what refereesdo but it's all from a negative perspective because they're dehumanized and hidden. Dermot Gallagher on SSN is the only interaction anyone will ever have with a ref. He may be a cracking ref but to a young person he's the representation of refereeing because he's what they see and hear from on tv. Imagine how dull he seems to a 13 year old like my step son!
 
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