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Political Logos

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RustyRef said:
I'll let it go for now as there are at least some references to football ... :)

My two penneth - I absolutely support the right to protest, at least in normal times. But these aren't normal times, gatherings of more than 6 people are illegal and simply should not be happing. With social media these days there are ways to protest without turning up in person and risking spreading the virus further. These protests simply would not be allowed to happen in places like Spain and Italy and would be broken up, with the use of force if necessary. I hope I am wrong but I fear we will be heading back into lockdown again in a few weeks and there will be only one primary reason for that, and as someone living in London it frustrates me beyond belief that thousands of people are congregating in this city for illegal protests. Putting aside the considerable issue that they risk infecting their friends and family, what is worse is that they are putting essential workers at risk, like the transport workers that get them into London and the police that have to deal with the protest crowds.
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The problem is, protesting in a manner which is approved by authorities is historically ineffective. What establishment systems want is for protesters to turn up, do a little march, feel like they've made a difference and then go home so that the establishment can get on with ignoring them. Only by disrupting the approved systems can you actually force authorities to listen.

You only need to look at the Bristol statue to see this in action. Campaigns and petitions (aka, approved forms of protest) have been going on for years, with precisely zero effect because it's easy to just sweep that kind of thing under the rug. But by taking one statue and chucking it in a harbour, not only have they fixed this issue that's been stuck in ineffective bureaucracy for years, but they've made it high-profile and a national issue, with the suitability of other statues now being discussed. Good or bad, right or wrong - all up for debate, but the one thing you can't argue against is that it's been effective.

You'll know from my post history that I'm paranoid about the virus. But it's also not fair to pretend that the BLM marches are the only mass gatherings. I've see the videos of a "social distanced" conga (that really wasn't) for VE day. I've seen the news reports of crowded beaches and parks. And now I've see the news reports of these "anti-BLM" protests where they don't even attempt to pretend that they're social distancing. BLM marches might be a contributor to any future lockdown - but it's far from the only reason. And focusing on that but ignoring all the white people out for a haircut or a beer in the sun is only playing into racist narratives.
RustyRef said:
In terms of football, I don't see that allowing BLM logos and promotion is that different to the long running promotion of kick racism out material, after all both campaigns have the same desired outcome.
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This however I agree with 100%. One of the best and most impactful things football can do is take their existing "Kick It Out" slogan that most people accept as a well-intentioned campaign, and make it clear that they consider it part of the same issue as BLM.
 
The Ref Stop
I'm not sure anyone is dismissing any anti-racism element to this but recent events have been overtook by thug elements (on both sides). BLM was actually started in 2013 https://blacklivesmatter.com/herstory/ . Football shouldn't be used to promote any organisation with political power aspirations and, if you believe the hype 'defund the police'. .... Football has made great strides on racism but I fail to see how a logo on a shirt changes anything......
 
Kes said:
That, unfortunately is the legacy of PC madness.

If you don't support the "movement" then by default you're a racist. The world starting going mad a few years back and it's only gonna get worse.
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correct, I actual was called a racist for speaking out about last weeks protest
If your not with them, you are against them

which is not the case at all.

very sorry if mindless violence, vandalism and mob rule is not my thing
 
Kes said:
What fire?

Can anybody on here give me an example of "systemic racism" here in the UK in the last 10 years?

What a bunch of thug coppers in the USA did to some black bloke does not translate to us here having a problem with being a racist society here. How could it?

My view of the BLM thing is that they may have more than a case for protest over there, but here, no way. Footballers wearing that slogan on their shirts is nothing more than PC virtue signalling and is helping to validate the disgraceful actions of a bunch of woke idiots hell-bent on causing unrest and calamity.

Sport and "politics" (not that it's even political) should stay apart.
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Sorry Kes, I can see your comment is well-intentioned but I can't let you say systematic racism doesn't exist in the UK.

Just a few examples:
- Black people are more likely to be stop and searched by police.
- Black people are more likely to be pulled over by police (road traffic stops).
- A black person is more likely to be given a longer prison sentence than a white person.
- A black person is more likely to die in police custody.

I understand that it's incredibly difficult to see systematic racism first-hand but the government does regularly publish stats and figures which demonstrates systematic racism. There are also numerous reports published including the recent report re covid, released last week.
 
Mr Dean said:
Sorry Kes, I can see your comment is well-intentioned but I can't let you say systematic racism doesn't exist in the UK.

Just a few examples:
- Black people are more likely to be stop and searched by police.
- Black people are more likely to be pulled over by police (road traffic stops).
- A black person is more likely to be given a longer prison sentence than a white person.
- A black person is more likely to die in police custody.

I understand that it's incredibly difficult to see systematic racism first-hand but the government does regularly publish stats and figures which demonstrates systematic racism. There are also numerous reports published including the recent report re covid, released last week.
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Mr Dean said:
Sorry Kes, I can see your comment is well-intentioned but I can't let you say systematic racism doesn't exist in the UK.

Just a few examples:
- Black people are more likely to be stop and searched by police.
- Black people are more likely to be pulled over by police (road traffic stops).
- A black person is more likely to be given a longer prison sentence than a white person.
- A black person is more likely to die in police custody.

I understand that it's incredibly difficult to see systematic racism first-hand but the government does regularly publish stats and figures which demonstrates systematic racism. There are also numerous reports published including the recent report re covid, released last week.
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i be honest, in my near 50 year on earth, having been at school, numerous jobs, been to over 1000 footy matches, taken part in double that, travelled all Europe and attend live gigs as often as possible...
Apart from early 90s when coloured players were getting abuse, I have never seen or heard of any racism.
Maybe I dont prowl the streets with my hood up
Maybe i was never in a gang
Maybe i have never caused violence and been up in court
Maybe somehow i been blinkered and missed it, but, I live my life a certain way without the points you made happening to me
Black person dying in police custody? Solution, do not end up in police custody
Problem solved 👍
 
@Mr Dean Doesn't mean anything. Stats can be interpreted any number of different ways.

When police are looking for miscreants, I'd hope they'd use their intelligence and pull over/stop/search whoever their experience and the crime stats you speak of tell them to. Your post sadly sums up the sheer madness of it mate. Police now afraid to act for fear of being branded racist.

You can't claim that "stats" show racism without linking it to the actual crime stats. You might as well say that the UK is a clearly misandrist society because virtually all those convicted of rape are men. It's about fact. You can't attach a feeling or an idea to a fact and call it something else.

Besides, whatever your or anyone's perception of the police is, it doesn't make the UK on the whole, guilty of systemic racism. The UK actually operates in the opposite way in virtually all that it does.
 
one said:
For me "all lives matter" is clearly a anti-"black lives matter in disguise". Why else would it ever pop up any time there are "black lives matter" protests.
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I didn't know it did to be honest. The sentiment from me comes from the fact that all lives do matter... to me. There's no more meaning to it than that
 
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Big Cat said:
I didn't know it did to be honest. The sentiment from me comes from the fact that all lives do matter... to me. There's no more meaning to it than that
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Of course they do. I understand your sentiment and my post wasn't referring to it. It was a reference to pro "all lives matter" protesters deliberately diverting attention away from racial issues highlighted by BLM protests.
 
The Bristol protests were aimed at an ex slave Trader, fair enough, most of us have moved on, but if you know your history there were white slave traders too in numerous countries.
There were attacks in Liverpool too with regards Penny Lane after a chap in their history called Penny. Where does it end. Are we taking down the Desperate Dan Statue in Dundee because it upsets vegetarians??
You can’t airbrush out all history because you don’t like parts of it,
 
Ciley Myrus said:
Egypts Pryamids next...get them torn down

built by slaves...
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Megalithics is one of my pet subjects Ciley and your last statement is factually incorrect ;)
Over 1000 pyramids in the world and only 2 have any sort of hieroglyphics in them. The Egyptian ones certainly aren't mausoleums or built by slaves.... or built by Pharaohs!!!!...

It will be interesting when we do fire back up on Wednesday if any other visible gestures are made by players or even referees, we shall see!!!
 
Sheffields Finest said:
Megalithics is one of my pet subjects Ciley and your last statement is factually incorrect ;)
Over 1000 pyramids in the world and only 2 have any sort of hieroglyphics in them. The Egyptian ones certainly aren't mausoleums or built by slaves.... or built by Pharaohs!!!!...

It will be interesting when we do fire back up on Wednesday if any other visible gestures are made by players or even referees, we shall see!!!
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Ok i bow to your superior knowledge of Pharoes

your still a sh@t ref x
 
GraemeS said:
The problem is, protesting in a manner which is approved by authorities is historically ineffective. What establishment systems want is for protesters to turn up, do a little march, feel like they've made a difference and then go home so that the establishment can get on with ignoring them. Only by disrupting the approved systems can you actually force authorities to listen.

You only need to look at the Bristol statue to see this in action. Campaigns and petitions (aka, approved forms of protest) have been going on for years, with precisely zero effect because it's easy to just sweep that kind of thing under the rug. But by taking one statue and chucking it in a harbour, not only have they fixed this issue that's been stuck in ineffective bureaucracy for years, but they've made it high-profile and a national issue, with the suitability of other statues now being discussed. Good or bad, right or wrong - all up for debate, but the one thing you can't argue against is that it's been effective.

You'll know from my post history that I'm paranoid about the virus. But it's also not fair to pretend that the BLM marches are the only mass gatherings. I've see the videos of a "social distanced" conga (that really wasn't) for VE day. I've seen the news reports of crowded beaches and parks. And now I've see the news reports of these "anti-BLM" protests where they don't even attempt to pretend that they're social distancing. BLM marches might be a contributor to any future lockdown - but it's far from the only reason. And focusing on that but ignoring all the white people out for a haircut or a beer in the sun is only playing into racist narratives.

This however I agree with 100%. One of the best and most impactful things football can do is take their existing "Kick It Out" slogan that most people accept as a well-intentioned campaign, and make it clear that they consider it part of the same issue as BLM.
Click to expand...

The crowded beaches and parks are very different as it is possible to keep 2 metres apart. The photos from beaches did look busy but people still appeared to be apart from each other (except for the allowed family groups), and the press haven't helped by showing photos that clearly weren't from this year. Can't remember the exact rag but one showed a photo of Bournemouth beach that locals said couldn't have been this year as a landmark it showed had significantly changed.

At protests it is much harder to stay apart due to the number of people in such a small area, and even harder when you are rioting and attacking police. And I say that regardless of the protest, I didn't agree with the BLM protests and I certainly don't agree with the right wing protests yesterday and would like to see anyone rioting at the latter locked up for their actions. But Coronavirus doesn't discriminate, and anyone regardless of race, nationality, political views, etc, gathering in large numbers are risking the health of others.

And that leads me onto the the Black Lives Matters campaign, yes they do and I am absolutely supportive. But sadly it has been proven that black lives are also far more susceptible to the virus than other lives, so there is a certain irony that BLM protests are actually putting black lives that they strive to protect and improve at increased risk. The law is the law, and no one should be gathering in large numbers, that includes protestors regardless of race or motives, and also includes those absolute idiots attending raves in Manchester yesterday.

Football has a part to play though and they can do so by continuing to support Kick It Out and also support BLM going forward. Some footballers are also going to come out of this pandemic with much more credit, an example being Marcus Rashford for all the work he has done around poverty and hunger.
 
RustyRef said:
The crowded beaches and parks are very different as it is possible to keep 2 metres apart. The photos from beaches did look busy but people still appeared to be apart from each other (except for the allowed family groups), and the press haven't helped by showing photos that clearly weren't from this year. Can't remember the exact rag but one showed a photo of Bournemouth beach that locals said couldn't have been this year as a landmark it showed had significantly changed.

At protests it is much harder to stay apart due to the number of people in such a small area, and even harder when you are rioting and attacking police. And I say that regardless of the protest, I didn't agree with the BLM protests and I certainly don't agree with the right wing protests yesterday and would like to see anyone rioting at the latter locked up for their actions. But Coronavirus doesn't discriminate, and anyone regardless of race, nationality, political views, etc, gathering in large numbers are risking the health of others.

And that leads me onto the the Black Lives Matters campaign, yes they do and I am absolutely supportive. But sadly it has been proven that black lives are also far more susceptible to the virus than other lives, so there is a certain irony that BLM protests are actually putting black lives that they strive to protect and improve at increased risk. The law is the law, and no one should be gathering in large numbers, that includes protestors regardless of race or motives, and also includes those absolute idiots attending raves in Manchester yesterday.

Football has a part to play though and they can do so by continuing to support Kick It Out and also support BLM going forward. Some footballers are also going to come out of this pandemic with much more credit, an example being Marcus Rashford for all the work he has done around poverty and hunger.
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Rashford has been an absolute star.... Well done to him, his stock is very high!!
 
The difference between Kick It Out and BLM is that kick it out was football based and centred around the less specific notion of general racism. BLM is now a political cause with wide ranging subject matter.

BLM also has political opponents. Many of those will be football fans, of differing levels of fanaticism. It seems to me that if football openly supports BLM, it is asking for a world of hurt.
 
Redster said:
The difference between Kick It Out and BLM is that kick it out was football based and centred around the less specific notion of general racism. BLM is now a political cause with wide ranging subject matter.

BLM also has political opponents. Many of those will be football fans, of differing levels of fanaticism. It seems to me that if football openly supports BLM, it is asking for a world of hurt.
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So you're saying that supporting an anti-racism movement might see football "asking for a world of hurt"? Are you suggesting that those who oppose BLM, the basic tenet of it, not the criminal damage carried out in its name, not the riots, both of which are unacceptable, but the actual raison d'etre i.e. systematic racism, in other words, racists, might cause a problem for football?

Gee whizz, I remember the National Front coming to my club and trying to take over the ground, influencing people through leafleting, etc. They were eventually run out of town after about a season. I suspect that the same would happen again at most clubs.
 
The point is that it is a movement, and not a vague expression of ideal.

When sport, which is inherently a broad church, starts to support particular causes, it necessarily does so at the expense of other causes.

While the expression 'black lives matter' is not one that can be contradicted except by nutters, some of the tagalong politics is certainly up for debate.

Divisions in sport are supposed to be limited to green v red. Leave the other stuff at the door.
 
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