I don't agree with this comparison. You are comparing something which people dislike (a moral question) with something that is way past morality and into criminality on mass scale. While I don't agree with the way some of these historical monuments have been take down, for me, anything that represents, dignifies or glorifies slavery must be destroyed (or at least removed and hidden) by authorities.The Bristol protests were aimed at an ex slave Trader, fair enough, most of us have moved on, but if you know your history there were white slave traders too in numerous countries.
There were attacks in Liverpool too with regards Penny Lane after a chap in their history called Penny. Where does it end. Are we taking down the Desperate Dan Statue in Dundee because it upsets vegetarians??
You can’t airbrush out all history because you don’t like parts of it,
Seriously, have you not heard of books and museums? That's how we learn history, looking at a giant bronze statue of a man does nothing to tell me about his controversial part in the slave trade. It doesn't frame or allow for the debate, it simply glorifies him. And it turns out, that glorifying him for his charitable contributions is a great way of glossing over the fact that the main reason he had the money to be a philanthropist is because he bought and sold people...The Bristol statue was put there for his charity work in the city not because he was involved in the slave trade! Ironically it was legal at the time and the Uk government paid for them to stop. A bill that was finally settled only in 2015. What next, take down half the large buildings in Liverpool docks as many have references to the trade and the glorification at the time. Main point being football isn’t this, it’s not it’s fight, it’s supposed to be non political. That’s for other platforms...
So you're saying that supporting an anti-racism movement might see football "asking for a world of hurt"? Are you suggesting that those who oppose BLM, the basic tenet of it, not the criminal damage carried out in its name, not the riots, both of which are unacceptable, but the actual raison d'etre i.e. systematic racism, in other words, racists, might cause a problem for football?
Gee whizz, I remember the National Front coming to my club and trying to take over the ground, influencing people through leafleting, etc. They were eventually run out of town after about a season. I suspect that the same would happen again at most clubs.
You are more likely to be stopped and searched by police if you are of BAME heritage.Still waiting for some examples of "systemic racism" here in the UK
.....
You are more likely to be stopped and searched by police if you are of BAME heritage.
Stop and search
Between April 2022 and March 2023, there were 24.5 stop and searches for every 1,000 black people in England and Wales. There were 5.9 for every 1,000 white people.www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk
That is 1 example of systematic racism.
James, that argument just doesn't stand up.....
You are more likely to be stopped and searched by police if you are of BAME heritage.
Stop and search
Between April 2022 and March 2023, there were 24.5 stop and searches for every 1,000 black people in England and Wales. There were 5.9 for every 1,000 white people.www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk
That is 1 example of systematic racism.
As a player or referee, I'm guessing I've participated in over 700 football matches. Not once in all that time over 25 years have I encountered an issue or allegation relating to race. Even at Power League with its significant potential for a fight each week, again no issue with race
Same at work. It's difficult therefore to accept that prejudice is everywhere in the UK. Maybe I'm wearing blinkers
Inequality is complex however and will take generations to bridge
Let's accept this argument of "Racism is not longer a problem in football" for a moment.
Well great. Wonderful news. Maybe it would be a good thing to do to connect this apparently successful campaign in football with a larger campaign that is looking to do similar in more general society and try to extend that excellent, all-encompassing success outwards even further. It would seem strange to me for anyone to have a problem with that idea?
Rather than get into a debate about it, I am going to leave it at this.
I can see that from an anti racist point of view you don't see these fact and figures as evidence, because you don't hold any racial prejudice or biases. Therefore in you perfect worlds you don't see how anyone can be disadvantaged due to the colour of their skin.
The fact is, that the stats say that there is a problem. The fact it is widely reported and talked about suggests it is a very real problem despite you having such faith in our legal system that means it possibly cannot be the case.
Couple of general points. BAME make up 3% of the population yet in 2017 accounted for 12% of the prison population. That's not the stat that has the answers.. That's the stat that raises the questions. Are you more likely to be a criminal because of your skin colour?if so, why is that? And if not then why have we such a disproportionate amount of BAME men and women incarcerated?
Bringing it back to football Premier league has around a third BAME players, so why are they so under represented in management and coaching.
More specifically, refereeing, why are BAME so under represented in the refereeing structure. In 8 years I have only worked with 2 referees of BAME heritage. And that was in and around North West where I would expect to have seen more BAME colleagues than perhaps in Cornwall due to demographics.
So we aren't talking about racism in a sense of direct name calling, which thankfully is significantly less than in times gone by, but we do need to address why BAME groups are significantly disadvantaged in many walks of life including employment, poverty, criminal justice etc. Which is more what the BLM movement is about. Its not about day to day experiences and interactions, and name calling it's about how they are able to get on in life and have the same opportunities that exist in this country for those of white British heritage.
I am not going to continue in this debate. If you honestly feel there is no problem, then thats fine, I doubt that I will ever change your views/opinions, but there is enough in the news, research online etc. that demonstrates that those of BAME are not always treated fairly in our society and this is why we are now seeing the response we are.
The raw stats (quoted) are nothing more than just that. No context, no analysis etc.Rather than get into a debate about it, I am going to leave it at this.
I can see that from an anti racist point of view you don't see these fact and figures as evidence, because you don't hold any racial prejudice or biases. Therefore in you perfect worlds you don't see how anyone can be disadvantaged due to the colour of their skin.
The fact is, that the stats say that there is a problem. The fact it is widely reported and talked about suggests it is a very real problem despite you having such faith in our legal system that means it possibly cannot be the case.
Couple of general points. BAME make up 3% of the population yet in 2017 accounted for 12% of the prison population. That's not the stat that has the answers.. That's the stat that raises the questions. Are you more likely to be a criminal because of your skin colour?if so, why is that? And if not then why have we such a disproportionate amount of BAME men and women incarcerated?
Bringing it back to football Premier league has around a third BAME players, so why are they so under represented in management and coaching.
More specifically, refereeing, why are BAME so under represented in the refereeing structure. In 8 years I have only worked with 2 referees of BAME heritage. And that was in and around North West where I would expect to have seen more BAME colleagues than perhaps in Cornwall due to demographics.
So we aren't talking about racism in a sense of direct name calling, which thankfully is significantly less than in times gone by, but we do need to address why BAME groups are significantly disadvantaged in many walks of life including employment, poverty, criminal justice etc. Which is more what the BLM movement is about. Its not about day to day experiences and interactions, and name calling it's about how they are able to get on in life and have the same opportunities that exist in this country for those of white British heritage.
I am not going to continue in this debate. If you honestly feel there is no problem, then thats fine, I doubt that I will ever change your views/opinions, but there is enough in the news, research online etc. that demonstrates that those of BAME are not always treated fairly in our society and this is why we are now seeing the response we are.
You're really asking that? In the current context?What fire?
Not really with you again with the cartoon...You're really asking that? In the current context?
The fire is the systematic and endemic bias against people simply because of the colour of their skin, especially in the way it has been seen publicly and shockingly in recent weeks and months.
The fire is George Floyd, the fire is Breonna Taylor, the fire is Ahmaud Arbery, the fire is Philando Castile, the fire is Eric Garner, the fire is Trayvon Martin - I could go on and on and on.
Here's another similar analogy to the one I gave about "all houses matter", in picture form:
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