The Ref Stop

Change of Goalkeepers at half time – u14 match

V

Viking

Well-Known Member
I knew a change was happening because I’d noticed him warming up both before the game and at half time. When the sides trooped in a slovenly fashion back onto the pitch for the second half, I noticed the change of goalkeeper. I didn’t confirm with the coach, and the coach didn’t ask for permission to change the keeper. However, I did my usual question to make sure that both keepers and CARs were ready, 11 on the pitch for each team and I started the second half.

The side of the changed keeper lost 4-2. After the game, the chairman of the losing side asked if I’d like some observations from him in, what he called an assessor capacity. He may have been a referee assessor in the past – he certainly has been in administration of leagues and clubs and on disciplinary panels in the past 30 years. I’m not one to turn down an observation, eventhough I would be cutting it fine to see my beloved Crystal Palace get steamrollered 7-0 by Liverpool but I digress.

This chairman’s observations concerned the change of goalkeeper and he wanted to know if I had been made aware of the substitution by the coach and whether their coach had been informed of the change. I said that I aware they had changed keeper at half time but not certain that their coach had been informed. He said, ‘Well, first time he picked up the ball then, you should have given a penalty. That’s another one we’ve missed out on’. I just suggested that it seems harsh to give a penalty in those circumstances. He replied by stating the LOTG say if a keeper is changed without telling the ref or opposition coach then it’s a penalty.

I ended up thanking the guy for bringing it to my attention and just said it was probably one of several things I’d got wrong in the game. However, as always I like to take a look at the LOTG to clarify and the only relevant parts I can see are under Law 3:

4. Changing the goalkeeper

Any of the players may change places with the goalkeeper if:

• the referee is informed before the change is made

• the change is made during a stoppage in play

5. Offences and sanctions

If a substitution is made during the half-time interval or before extra time,

the procedure must be completed before the match restarts. If the referee is

not informed, the named substitute may continue to play, no disciplinary

action is taken and the matter is reported to the appropriate authorities.

If a player changes places with the goalkeeper without the referee’s

permission, the referee:

• allows play to continue

• cautions both players when the ball is next out of play but not if the change

occurred during half-time

Reading the above, although the coach didn’t seek my permission, no card in due because it happened at half time anyway. However, I feel I gave a permission for the new keeper to play in the second half as I was aware of who he was and that it had happened. There is nothing about telling the opposition coach.

There has been a player enter the field of play without asking me so perhaps a YC could be due but internally I gave him a permission to do so, so I wouldn’t.

Has anyone any views on my actions at all? Apart from announcing a new keeper before starting the second half and telling the coach he needs to inform me, would others be ok with what I did? I am all for education, especially players and coaches, so I am minded to write an email to the club chairman, via the league, clarify the matter. I’m 53 and have too much time on my hands.
 
The Ref Stop
Viking said:
I knew a change was happening because I’d noticed him warming up both before the game and at half time. When the sides trooped in a slovenly fashion back onto the pitch for the second half, I noticed the change of goalkeeper. I didn’t confirm with the coach, and the coach didn’t ask for permission to change the keeper. However, I did my usual question to make sure that both keepers and CARs were ready, 11 on the pitch for each team and I started the second half.

The side of the changed keeper lost 4-2. After the game, the chairman of the losing side asked if I’d like some observations from him in, what he called an assessor capacity. He may have been a referee assessor in the past – he certainly has been in administration of leagues and clubs and on disciplinary panels in the past 30 years. I’m not one to turn down an observation, eventhough I would be cutting it fine to see my beloved Crystal Palace get steamrollered 7-0 by Liverpool but I digress.

This chairman’s observations concerned the change of goalkeeper and he wanted to know if I had been made aware of the substitution by the coach and whether their coach had been informed of the change. I said that I aware they had changed keeper at half time but not certain that their coach had been informed. He said, ‘Well, first time he picked up the ball then, you should have given a penalty. That’s another one we’ve missed out on’. I just suggested that it seems harsh to give a penalty in those circumstances. He replied by stating the LOTG say if a keeper is changed without telling the ref or opposition coach then it’s a penalty.

I ended up thanking the guy for bringing it to my attention and just said it was probably one of several things I’d got wrong in the game. However, as always I like to take a look at the LOTG to clarify and the only relevant parts I can see are under Law 3:

4. Changing the goalkeeper

Any of the players may change places with the goalkeeper if:

• the referee is informed before the change is made

• the change is made during a stoppage in play

5. Offences and sanctions

If a substitution is made during the half-time interval or before extra time,

the procedure must be completed before the match restarts. If the referee is

not informed, the named substitute may continue to play, no disciplinary

action is taken and the matter is reported to the appropriate authorities.

If a player changes places with the goalkeeper without the referee’s

permission, the referee:

• allows play to continue

• cautions both players when the ball is next out of play but not if the change

occurred during half-time

Reading the above, although the coach didn’t seek my permission, no card in due because it happened at half time anyway. However, I feel I gave a permission for the new keeper to play in the second half as I was aware of who he was and that it had happened. There is nothing about telling the opposition coach.

There has been a player enter the field of play without asking me so perhaps a YC could be due but internally I gave him a permission to do so, so I wouldn’t.

Has anyone any views on my actions at all? Apart from announcing a new keeper before starting the second half and telling the coach he needs to inform me, would others be ok with what I did? I am all for education, especially players and coaches, so I am minded to write an email to the club chairman, via the league, clarify the matter. I’m 53 and have too much time on my hands.
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Next time you see him politely offer him some advise that he was talking nonsense.
 
He is obviously getting confused with the extra persons on field of play law which is not applicable.
Maybe drop him an email thanking for his advice and correct him.
 
The Jist of the matter is that the referee needs to be notified of the change being made and it requires making at a stoppage in play.
IE Half time or other natural stoppage
 
Out of interest, can anyone clarify that the following would actually involve?
no disciplinary

action is taken and the matter is reported to the appropriate authorities.
Click to expand...
So I don't caution either player...but I do need to report the fact that I didn't caution them to someone?
 
GraemeS said:
Out of interest, can anyone clarify that the following would actually involve?

So I don't caution either player...but I do need to report the fact that I didn't caution them to someone?
Click to expand...
That’s for a sub, not for changing with another player. I’ve always understood that provision to be aimed at restricted sub levels of play where subs are tracked, as it affects the ability to properly track the subs. For the games I do, certainly doesn’t apply.

And the guy was certainly talking nonsense—it’s never been a PK for the improperly changed GK to touch the ball. The OP was handled properly—total nothingburger.
 
Viking said:
I knew a change was happening because I’d noticed him warming up both before the game and at half time. When the sides trooped in a slovenly fashion back onto the pitch for the second half, I noticed the change of goalkeeper. I didn’t confirm with the coach, and the coach didn’t ask for permission to change the keeper. However, I did my usual question to make sure that both keepers and CARs were ready, 11 on the pitch for each team and I started the second half.

The side of the changed keeper lost 4-2. After the game, the chairman of the losing side asked if I’d like some observations from him in, what he called an assessor capacity. He may have been a referee assessor in the past – he certainly has been in administration of leagues and clubs and on disciplinary panels in the past 30 years. I’m not one to turn down an observation, eventhough I would be cutting it fine to see my beloved Crystal Palace get steamrollered 7-0 by Liverpool but I digress.

This chairman’s observations concerned the change of goalkeeper and he wanted to know if I had been made aware of the substitution by the coach and whether their coach had been informed of the change. I said that I aware they had changed keeper at half time but not certain that their coach had been informed. He said, ‘Well, first time he picked up the ball then, you should have given a penalty. That’s another one we’ve missed out on’. I just suggested that it seems harsh to give a penalty in those circumstances. He replied by stating the LOTG say if a keeper is changed without telling the ref or opposition coach then it’s a penalty.

I ended up thanking the guy for bringing it to my attention and just said it was probably one of several things I’d got wrong in the game. However, as always I like to take a look at the LOTG to clarify and the only relevant parts I can see are under Law 3:

4. Changing the goalkeeper

Any of the players may change places with the goalkeeper if:

• the referee is informed before the change is made

• the change is made during a stoppage in play

5. Offences and sanctions

If a substitution is made during the half-time interval or before extra time,

the procedure must be completed before the match restarts. If the referee is

not informed, the named substitute may continue to play, no disciplinary

action is taken and the matter is reported to the appropriate authorities.

If a player changes places with the goalkeeper without the referee’s

permission, the referee:

• allows play to continue

• cautions both players when the ball is next out of play but not if the change

occurred during half-time

Reading the above, although the coach didn’t seek my permission, no card in due because it happened at half time anyway. However, I feel I gave a permission for the new keeper to play in the second half as I was aware of who he was and that it had happened. There is nothing about telling the opposition coach.

There has been a player enter the field of play without asking me so perhaps a YC could be due but internally I gave him a permission to do so, so I wouldn’t.

Has anyone any views on my actions at all? Apart from announcing a new keeper before starting the second half and telling the coach he needs to inform me, would others be ok with what I did? I am all for education, especially players and coaches, so I am minded to write an email to the club chairman, via the league, clarify the matter. I’m 53 and have too much time on my hands.
Click to expand...

Whenever someone besides your designated assessor/observer (or someone you've asked informally to watch and mentor/observe) comes up to you for something like this, alarm bells should be ringing.

Several years ago, I had something similar to this happen. U11 game between two teams who have a pretty heated rivalry at the high school level. After the game, the assignor told me I was placed on this game specifically because the teams didn't like each other and he knew I wouldn't have an issue dealing with anyone. Following the game (which was actually a pretty easy game for me to officiate except for this team's coaches and parents), a parent from the winning team comes up to me with the red flag we've all heard before - "Can I ask you a question?"

I knew where this was going, and my answer was direct - "No, you may not." The parent then told me he was going to report me to the tournament administration (remember, his kid's team won). I told him that was his right to do so and walked off. What this parent didn't know was that I was already going to report this team to the president of the club for their poor behavior (I got to "tell" on two different coaches and told field marshals to stand behind this group of parents for the rest of the game). What was even funnier was that the coach of the losing team, who had some issues with me in the past on non-refereeing related matters, told me after the game it was the best-officiated game he had seen all year.

The president of the club informed me that this team had been the subject of some not-so-pleasant discussions in the past and that my report to them was going to see some changes made. The next fall, I refereed this team again and the head coach in the spring wasn't coaching anymore.
 
GraemeS said:
Out of interest, can anyone clarify that the following would actually involve?

So I don't caution either player...but I do need to report the fact that I didn't caution them to someone?
Click to expand...
I think what you're supposed to be reporting is the fact that the team changed their goalkeeper at half time without telling you, not that you didn't caution the keeper. Since the law clearly says that you're not to caution them, why would you need to report that?
 
Peter Grove said:
I think what you're supposed to be reporting is the fact that the team changed their goalkeeper at half time without telling you, not that you didn't caution the keeper. Since the law clearly says that you're not to caution them, why would you need to report that?
Click to expand...
It just feels like a very odd exception to have specified in the laws. Most matches I do, I fill out a match report for the league and input cautions/dismissals into wholegame. Nowhere in all of that is a facility to formally report offences that didn't merit a caution.

I don't really see why this was enough of problem that it needed changing and having decided to change it, why they did it in this weird way. It's a requirement for a team to inform the referee when they're making a change - failure to do so is either an offence requiring caution(s) or it's trivial and doesn't require action. Creating an entirely new middle ground for this is an untidy and messy fix for an issue that didn't need fixing!
 
Just as a little aside, as we all get ready for the start of the second half I always ask (either captain or coach, depending on who is most convenient to me) if they’ve made any changes. OK - it’s the responsibility of the teams to tell me, but by giving them a prompt it prevents any possible problems liked those mentioned in the OP. Pro-active refereeing I think it’s called!
 
GraemeS said:
It just feels like a very odd exception to have specified in the laws. Most matches I do, I fill out a match report for the league and input cautions/dismissals into wholegame. Nowhere in all of that is a facility to formally report offences that didn't merit a caution.
Click to expand...
Someone forgot to tell IFAB to write the laws to fit how wholegame works :).
 
GraemeS said:
It just feels like a very odd exception to have specified in the laws. Most matches I do, I fill out a match report for the league and input cautions/dismissals into wholegame. Nowhere in all of that is a facility to formally report offences that didn't merit a caution.

I don't really see why this was enough of problem that it needed changing and having decided to change it, why they did it in this weird way. It's a requirement for a team to inform the referee when they're making a change - failure to do so is either an offence requiring caution(s) or it's trivial and doesn't require action. Creating an entirely new middle ground for this is an untidy and messy fix for an issue that didn't need fixing!
Click to expand...
Extraordinary report?
Agree with the rest.. Not least because no reason was given for this change. It was a clarification.
My only assumption is that it was to fall in line with named subs starting. Although I think the cut off needs to be the start of the game.
The other side is the cautions are for entering/leaving without permission. Subbed player did have permission to leave so a caution for just one would be inconsistent.
Like you say, I dont think it was broken in the first place. I think they have sought to resolve a conflict, and created another in the process.
 
JamesL said:
Extraordinary report?
Agree with the rest.. Not least because no reason was given for this change. It was a clarification.
My only assumption is that it was to fall in line with named subs starting. Although I think the cut off needs to be the start of the game.
The other side is the cautions are for entering/leaving without permission. Subbed player did have permission to leave so a caution for just one would be inconsistent.
Like you say, I dont think it was broken in the first place. I think they have sought to resolve a conflict, and created another in the process.
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Maybe...extraordinary reports always feel like they're for things that are even more serious/following on from a dismissal - I wouldn't ever have thought to use them for something less serious than a caution. But that might just be my perception.
 
one said:
Someone forgot to tell IFAB to write the laws to fit how wholegame works :).
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A totally fair piece of snide...but even if you flip cause and effect, surely we should have received clarification on how to input these trifling reports into wholegame? Instead, the FA have arguably failed to provide a facility for us to carry out something the LOTG requires - which is still a problem.
 
GraemeS said:
It just feels like a very odd exception to have specified in the laws. Most matches I do, I fill out a match report for the league and input cautions/dismissals into wholegame. Nowhere in all of that is a facility to formally report offences that didn't merit a caution.

I don't really see why this was enough of problem that it needed changing and having decided to change it, why they did it in this weird way. It's a requirement for a team to inform the referee when they're making a change - failure to do so is either an offence requiring caution(s) or it's trivial and doesn't require action. Creating an entirely new middle ground for this is an untidy and messy fix for an issue that didn't need fixing!
Click to expand...
It could be that it may be an issue which requires the game to be replayed, but that's up to the league to decide rather than IFAB or the CFA. If a GK who isn't disclosed to the Referee when he comes on then plays a blinder and wins his team the game this could possibly be grounds for the game to be replayed.

Not long after I started a team subbed a player at half time in one of my games, but didn't tell either me or the player going off! After the teams lined up I know I counted players, but because I was wearing boots I stopped at 10 outfield players because that's where I ran out of fingers (I don't know how I missed the additional player, but I obviously did!) We played 15 minutes and the team with the extra player scored before I realised and called a halt to proceedings. At the time what to do in these circumstances was a bit woolly. I thought about restarting the second half, but that wasn't really an option.
We had to finish the game (obviously with both teams now with the required number) and I reported the matter to the league. The game was replayed at the team's expense (with me again as the referee - they sort of still trusted me, but I did get a few comments!) As Jeff says, 25 years later I still count the teams as before but if no one tells me they've made any subs I tend to ask now as well, just in case!
 
GraemeS said:
A totally fair piece of snide...but even if you flip cause and effect, surely we should have received clarification on how to input these trifling reports into wholegame? Instead, the FA have arguably failed to provide a facility for us to carry out something the LOTG requires - which is still a problem.
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There are a number of other occasions that the law requires the referee to report something to "appropriate authorities". My guess is this one will be placed in the same place as you would with the other ones. @JamesL 's suggestion of extraordinary report sounds reasonable. Writing an email (or snail mail ) will do just as good.

This reminds me of one of our referees (over 40 years of refereeing experience), hand writes al his reports on a piece of paper and then posts it to our association secretary. He used to fax them but the association doesn't have a fax anymore.
 
An e-mail to the competition secretary is needed, just to confirm the change of keeper at half time. Further action is unlikely, apart from a bit of advice to the club.
This law has remained unchanged for decades, and is designed to tell the referee "No disciplinary action needed, but do advise the competition"
 
ChasTutorObserver said:
An e-mail to the competition secretary is needed, just to confirm the change of keeper at half time. Further action is unlikely, apart from a bit of advice to the club.
This law has remained unchanged for decades, and is designed to tell the referee "No disciplinary action needed, but do advise the competition"
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I would probably send to both. You normally report competition rule breaches to league/competition and discipline ie breaches of law to FA. Whilst no in-game discipline action, it is a still contrary to law so should be sent to the relevant Disciplinary dept.
As with any misconduct, I dont really care what happens afterwards - I have to do match report to the League so I mention it there, and it is rare to have zero misconduct to report so again, no harm in adding there, with the overall job taking a few seconds. Who deals with what after that is technically none of my business 😎
 
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