The Ref Stop

Match fees - again

K

Kent Ref

RefChat Addict
If i can get £25 for reffing under 11s (1hr) is £25 to line the county league adult game in a friendy a fair fee?

Once you take out your costs and travel time you are on about £8.50 an hour - less than minimum wage.

Have i got this wrong? I rejected the offer and told hem they were having a laugh.
 
The Ref Stop
I think it all comes down to what you’re in it for, but personally I would turn that down. Perhaps in less blunt terms!

I’ve recently had a baby so I’m planning to just do grassroots this season. £50 for a middle is just fine with me. Supply league lines are £35 and personally this isn’t worth it for me currently given you have to travel, be there an hour before KO etc… it ends up taking up the whole afternoon for not much return. The missus would murder me!
 
Don't talk about minimum wage, you are not an employee and rather as a referee you are effectively being paid a fee for providing a specific service. Those fees will be set by each competition, and this is generally why HMRC don't go after referees, in that the fee is low and will be outweighed by expenses.

Even at senior levels it is sometimes way less than minimum wage. As an example, when I stepped down from L3 it was £28.50 for 4th official on a National League Premier Game. You have to be there 2 hours before, 2 hours for the game, so that's £7 per hour. Realistically you are also there for an hour after the game, plus several hours travelling either side, so way, way, way less than minimum wage.

Be careful what you wish for, as if you talk about minimum wage HMRC could easily say that any referee fee is subject to your prevailing rate of income tax. That would turn your £25 into £18.75 or £15 depending on your tax rate.
 
RustyRef said:
Don't talk about minimum wage, you are not an employee and rather as a referee you are effectively being paid a fee for providing a specific service. Those fees will be set by each competition, and this is generally why HMRC don't go after referees, in that the fee is low and will be outweighed by expenses.

Even at senior levels it is sometimes way less than minimum wage. As an example, when I stepped down from L3 it was £28.50 for 4th official on a National League Premier Game. You have to be there 2 hours before, 2 hours for the game, so that's £7 per hour. Realistically you are also there for an hour after the game, plus several hours travelling either side, so way, way, way less than minimum wage.

Be careful what you wish for, as if you talk about minimum wage HMRC could easily say that any referee fee is subject to your prevailing rate of income tax. That would turn your £25 into £18.75 or £15 depending on your tax rate.
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I see what you say about HMRC.

But i think what is being asked for is unreasonable. I have friends who are involved in sports coaching (the nearest thing to us i think) and they get £20-£30 an hour (cash - same as us).

The only way this would be changed is if ALL refs said no but refs generally never act together to force change.
 
As with everything, you have a choice, to accept a fee or not too.
Personally, given that it's £34.00 to assist a step 3/4 middle £25.00 is a decent amount for the standard.
All that will happen if ARs refuse the money those county leagues will end up being reffed by CARs and you'll potentially lose the opportunity to assist in those games.
As an AR you have less overall responsibility in those games, so the fee will always be less than than in the middle, and I've always looked at those games as something I have to do to help the game, after all help is a synonym of assist, so I've always accepted the lower fee.
I don't see refereeing as 'work' so pounds per hour are not relevant in my opinion.
It's a hobby, and you get paid. The fee is known up front so the choice to accept the terms has ways been there. I've never seen the point in looking at pounds per hour, it's a long known fact you could get more per hour doing an actual job.
 
JamesL said:
As with everything, you have a choice, to accept a fee or not too.
Personally, given that it's £34.00 to assist a step 3/4 middle £25.00 is a decent amount for the standard.
All that will happen if ARs refuse the money those county leagues will end up being reffed by CARs and you'll potentially lose the opportunity to assist in those games.
As an AR you have less overall responsibility in those games, so the fee will always be less than than in the middle, and I've always looked at those games as something I have to do to help the game, after all help is a synonym of assist, so I've always accepted the lower fee.
I don't see refereeing as 'work' so pounds per hour are not relevant in my opinion.
It's a hobby, and you get paid. The fee is known up front so the choice to accept the terms has ways been there. I've never seen the point in looking at pounds per hour, it's a long known fact you could get more per hour doing an actual job.
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I see what you say BUT the way attitudes and behaviours have changed for the worse over the last 5-10 years it's become a lot more like work. This is a reflection of society and the way it has changed.

When i first started reffing i would have done it just for the petrol money but i don't feel like that any more.

You're right when you say everybody makes a choice though.
 
Isthmian Under 18s fees have increased next season to £43/£35, I'm guessing that means the U23s will increase as well.
 
Kent Ref said:
I see what you say BUT the way attitudes and behaviours have changed for the worse over the last 5-10 years it's become a lot more like work. This is a reflection of society and the way it has changed.

When i first started reffing i would have done it just for the petrol money but i don't feel like that any more.

You're right when you say everybody makes a choice though.
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It's a friendly that you have been asked to officiate, no one is dragging you there kicking and screaming. If you don't think it is enough then vote with your feet, say no and don't go.

I spent years in coaching and managing and I was never paid a penny, not even expenses.
 
Fees at grass roots must rise. There are plenty stories of referees simply not willing to travel with the obvious current cost of fuel, nevermind the rest of the economy

its a paid hobby and one hopefully we do because of our love of the game, on that basis its only proper that we see an actual reward to make our time worthwhile

Doubt we would use the 4 hr inclusive cycle to earn £10 profit if someone said leave the house at midday, drive, walk round a field for 90 mins, drive home, returning at 4pm then spend an hour doing admin, kit wash .
Now throw officiating the match into that cycle and all it entails.
 
Anubis said:
Fees at grass roots must rise. There are plenty stories of referees simply not willing to travel with the obvious current cost of fuel, nevermind the rest of the economy

its a paid hobby and one hopefully we do because of our love of the game, on that basis its only proper that we see an actual reward to make our time worthwhile

Doubt we would use the 4 hr inclusive cycle to earn £10 profit if someone said leave the house at midday, drive, walk round a field for 90 mins, drive home, returning at 4pm then spend an hour doing admin, kit wash .
Now throw officiating the match into that cycle and all it entails.
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Grass roots fees around me have increased significantly in recent years. Many Sunday leagues and junior Saturday leagues are now £40, wasn't that long ago they were £30. They aren't going to raise by the same rate as current inflation, just as salaries won't, and if they use ARs they are never going to get the same amount as the referee. That's like an employee expecting to get the same wage as his or her boss, it is very unlikely to happen.
 
RustyRef said:
Grass roots fees around me have increased significantly in recent years. Many Sunday leagues and junior Saturday leagues are now £40, wasn't that long ago they were £30. They aren't going to raise by the same rate as current inflation, just as salaries won't, and if they use ARs they are never going to get the same amount as the referee. That's like an employee expecting to get the same wage as his or her boss, it is very unlikely to happen.
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Think more what I mean and an aware of locally, is an increase in your bog standard ref considering where the game is, esp if getting a late call
The progressive youngsters looking to impress are happy to take anything but everyone else is now thinking, is this worthwhile for me to take.

I cover local lines at academy levels when all the pool of officials has been exhausted, the appointment sec knows if its local ( worth it) I will do it, he also knows if he asks me to go 20 miles, ( and bk obv) then I will politely decline

Yesterday I answered an sos for a u11 pro youth event, happy to do it for the fee involved as it was ten mile away, no chance I be covering it much further away and with anything lower than the stated fee ( in this case £35)
It ended up being six games at 25 min per game, and with breaks between games, it was time consuming and would not have been worthwhile for a smaller fee
The rate per hour method of course does not apply but when we do break it down thats 180 min so with 30 min drive, 4 hours giving your time to someone else, apx £8 an hour. Cant really provide a service for much less
 
Personally I would have accepted the appointment on the line as I just feel that I am better served on that game than the u11. The u11 game can easily be refereed by a coach/parent if no official is available.

In terms of match fees if the fee is £30 or £20 it doesnt matter really as it wont change my life or make me a better ref but that's me
 
Darren83 said:
Personally I would have accepted the appointment on the line as I just feel that I am better served on that game than the u11. The u11 game can easily be refereed by a coach/parent if no official is available.

In terms of match fees if the fee is £30 or £20 it doesnt matter really as it wont change my life or make me a better ref but that's me
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flip side, the game with ars appointed can go ahead ( 90% of time) with no ars, freeing up two match officials to cover two games elsewhere!
 
£25 for U11s! Not bad. I think it’s up to £20 for me now, was £15 when I started.

The point of the matter is simple, if it feels like you’re being underpaid don’t take it. Don’t undervalue yourself. As a student, am I doing it for love or money? The love of money is the correct answer.

Now admittedly, last time I reffed was for a sandwich and a drink but that was for a tournament so it was only voluntary. Once the season starts though, I’m not doing it if I’m not making enough money on it for it to be worth my time
 
You’re not going to get rich refereeing grassroots football.
Provided my petrol is covered and I can placate my wife with a takeaway when I get home then I’m happy 👍🏻
Whether it’s £20 or £70 doesn’t really bother me, I’m a referee because I LOVE football and staying involved after playing.
 
Will_A said:
You’re not going to get rich refereeing grassroots football.
Provided my petrol is covered and I can placate my wife with a takeaway when I get home then I’m happy 👍🏻
Whether it’s £20 or £70 doesn’t really bother me, I’m a referee because I LOVE football and staying involved after playing.
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Nobody is talking about "getting rich".

The point is being fairly rewarded.

What's fair - well, who knows but i know £25 for 4 hours itme minus my expenses is not.
 
Kent Ref said:
Nobody is talking about "getting rich".

The point is being fairly rewarded.

What's fair - well, who knows but i know £25 for 4 hours itme minus my expenses is not.
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At the danger of labouring a point, if you don't like it then don't do it. And don't ever go into senior football as you would get games for little more than that and much longer away from home, and in those cases you wouldn't have any choice not to do it.
 
I am very firmly of the opinion that if you’re refereeing because you want the money then you’re refereeing for the wrong reasons.

Without football what would you do to keep fit and get fresh air?

Go to the gym? Costs you £20-£50p/month
Go road running? Earns you nothing
Go to watch football somewhere? Costs anything from £5 right up to hundreds per game

Or you can referee for £25. Within this you get a workout, fresh air and get to watch a game of football.

No brainier for me.
 
My view is the same as the one I had when I was playing (admittedly mainly in the lower echelons of) semi-pro football.

If I'm not enjoying it, I'm never going to earn enough to be worth the amount of my non-work time spent on it & I should do something else.

If I am enjoying it, I'm getting paid to do something I love, so what's not to like ?

My only caveat is I'm not having people taking the p***. The only time I really feel that now I am refereeing is with the occasional (not most) club who turn their nose up at an extra £10 for travel expenses because the FA have sent me miles, but will happily pay some 3rd rate Billy Big-B****cks striker £250 a game - and then still expect they are getting a Premier League referee.
 
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