2 soft yellows?

[Standard]

U14 game and whilst sending off player A following a penalty incident, player B is scuffing up the PK outside the corner of my eye and I show him a caution after dealing with the red card. The team down to 10 men is currently 1-0 up, the penalty is missed and the Blues go up the other end and score to make it 2-0. Player B then somewhat sarcastically hoofs the ball 40 yards off the FOP, right under my eyes. I show him a second yellow and he looks somewhat perplexed.
Believe I was fine to do this under LOTG and match situation?

 

[Joe Harrison]

What was the second caution for?

 

[Standard]

What was the second caution for?

I reported it as delaying the restart

 

[Joe Harrison]

While it technically does delay the restart, and therefore you could be justified, in showing a second yellow and ultimately dismissing, I would question the extent to which the game would require and expect this?

The kick was most likely made out of frustration having conceded a second goal while playing against ten men. It most probably does not delay the restart to that great a degree as restarting play after a goal does take some time anyway. In most instances, I would expect most referees (especially at more senior levels) to be managing this, possibly by giving the player a final warning rather than sending off.

 

[Standard]

While it technically does delay the restart, and therefore you could be justified, in showing a second yellow and ultimately dismissing, I would question the extent to which the game would require and expect this?

The kick was most likely made out of frustration having conceded a second goal while playing against ten men. It most probably does not delay the restart to that great a degree as restarting play after a goal does take some time anyway. In most instances, I would expect most referees (especially at more senior levels) to be managing this, possibly by giving the player a final warning rather than sending off.

the kick was made by the player who’s team had scored, who were already down to 10 men, hence going down to 9 men. The kick was made in a sarcastic manner, he knew what he was doing and it was right next to me. Of course if the defending team had kicked the ball away, this would be a different matter and most probably not a caution.

 

[Joe Harrison]

Ahh my bad- I misread that. However, I would still question say my first point still stands - to what degree is this a true act of delaying the restart? They are 2-0 up (albeit with nine men). How long is left in the game? What is he hoping to gain by kicking the ball away?

If he is right next to you, and kicking the ball away in a sarcastic manner and therefore challenging your match control, a C2 sin bin may be more appropriate?

 

[Standard]

Ahh my bad- I misread that. However, I would still question say my first point still stands - to what degree is this a true act of delaying the restart? They are 2-0 up (albeit with nine men). How long is left in the game? What is he hoping to gain by kicking the ball away?

If he is right next to you, and kicking the ball away in a sarcastic manner and therefore challenging your match control, a C2 sin bin may be more appropriate?

Potentially should’ve sin binned, went with the harsher punishment as he had had it coming for most of the second half…

 

[Joshref]

Player B then somewhat sarcastically hoofs the ball 40 yards off the FOP
Believe I was fine to do this under LOTG and match situation?

The kick was made in a sarcastic manner, he knew what he was doing and it was right next to me.

I reported it as delaying the restart

If you are speaking the truth, that you cautioned him for delaying the restart, why do you keep emphasising that the player kicked it sarcastically. Why does this matter? You haven’t booked him for delaying the restart, I think you kind of know that. You’ve only booked him because you’re annoyed at him sarcastically kicking the ball, which is dissent by. action. Either you didn’t know about dissent or you wanted the player sent off methinks.
As for “match situation”, obviously correct application of LOTG trumps match control. However, seeing as you asked about it, no this isn’t great for match control.

Potentially should’ve sin binned, went with the harsher punishment as he had had it coming for most of the second half…

And before I posted this, I checked to see if there were anymore replies and you’ve just proved my case. You’ve only sent him off because he was annoying you. I imagine we all wish that was an option sometimes, but it’s not. You know the correct thing to do here was dissent. Both in terms of LOTG - delaying restart of play is a massive stretch, and is a clear example of dissent by action, and match control - taking an U14 team to 9 men harshly probs won’t help your match control.

 

[Standard]

If you are speaking the truth, that you cautioned him for delaying the restart, why do you keep emphasising that the player kicked it sarcastically. Why does this matter? You haven’t booked him for delaying the restart, I think you kind of know that. You’ve only booked him because you’re annoyed at him sarcastically kicking the ball, which is dissent by. action. Either you didn’t know about dissent or you wanted the player sent off methinks.
As for “match situation”, obviously correct application of LOTG trumps match control. However, seeing as you asked about it, no this isn’t great for match control.

And before I posted this, I checked to see if there were anymore replies and you’ve just proved my case. You’ve only sent him off because he was annoying you. I imagine we all wish that was an option sometimes, but it’s not. You know the correct thing to do here was dissent. Both in terms of LOTG - delaying restart of play is a massive stretch, and is a clear example of dissent by action, and match control - taking an U14 team to 9 men harshly probs won’t help your match control.

But why would he be showing dissent after his team scoring? This followed a sending off for OFFINABUS, and further misconduct from coaches so surely you can see why I wanted to avoid sinbinning, especially with 5 mins left, the harsher punishment was necessary

 

[Joshref]

But why would he be showing dissent after his team scoring?

Idk why was he? You mentioned he sarcastically kicked the ball away. Why was this? My guess would be he was upset about the caution, red card and penalty THAT HAD literally preceded the goal. It’s like he’s saying “you tried to screw us ref and we still scored take that” (not saying your prebious decisions were wrong, just saying what he was likely thinking.)

This followed a sending off for OFFINABUS, and further misconduct from coaches so surely you can see why I wanted to avoid sinbinning, especially with 5 mins left, the harsher punishment was necessary

No I don’t actually see why you wanted to avoid sinbinning. Once again, you should apply LOTG correctly. And if you were so worried about match control due to prior events, sending off a player harshly is going to cause you a lot of problems than a sin bin. And why does the time left have anything to do with it?

The harsher punishment wasn’t necessary, you just took LOTG into your own hands to punish a player with an extra fine (as you said The team would have been down to 9 anyway with the time left) because he was annoying you and I disagree strongly with that.

 

[Standard]

Idk why was he? You mentioned he sarcastically kicked the ball away. Why was this? My guess would be he was upset about the caution, red card and penalty THAT HAD literally preceded the goal. It’s like he’s saying “you tried to screw us ref and we still scored take that” (not saying your prebious decisions were wrong, just saying what he was likely thinking.)



No I don’t actually see why you wanted to avoid sinbinning. Once again, you should apply LOTG correctly. And if you were so worried about match control due to prior events, sending off a player harshly is going to cause you a lot of problems than a sin bin. And why does the time left have anything to do with it?

The harsher punishment wasn’t necessary, you just took LOTG into your own hands to punish a player with an extra fine (as you said The team would have been down to 9 anyway with the time left) because he was annoying you and I disagree strongly with that.

So technically speaking he had committed a cautionable offence that could be interpreted as C2 or C4, I had to choose one, and I chose c4.

 

[Joe Harrison]

So technically speaking he had committed a cautionable offence that could be interpreted as C2 or C4, I had to choose one, and I chose c4.

What I think Josh is trying to get at here is the importance of accuracy (and eventual) difference in punishment. A C4 caution (which I think is probably not correct) will result in a ban and a fine. A C2 dissent caution (probably correct) will result in only a caution fine and no ban.

 

[Standard]

What I think Josh is trying to get at here is the importance of accuracy (and eventual) difference in punishment. A C4 caution (which I think is probably not correct) will result in a ban and a fine. A C2 dissent caution (probably correct) will result in only a caution fine and no ban.

I can understand what you are saying here, but I honestly felt I would lose control the moment I showed him another yellow card without following the red, due to the situation of the game which is difficult to explain

 

[Joshref]

So technically speaking he had committed a cautionable offence that could be interpreted as C2 or C4, I had to choose one, and I chose c4.

As Joe said though there’s a massive difference In terms of punishment. You can’t just randomly choose punishments to fit what you want. You’ve just cost a player a big fine that whilst they might be an annoying so and so, they didn’t deserve.

I can understand what you are saying here, but I honestly felt I would lose control the moment I showed him another yellow card without following the red, due to the situation of the game which is difficult to explain

Now this I can understand a bit more when you talk about match control. Obviously though, you still have to go with the LOTG and you have to caution him for dissent and sin bin him. I still maintain your match control is more in order by using a sin bin than it is for a random red card out of nowhere. If you’re worried about match control though, just do what I see a lot of refs do. Don’t show the yellow for the sin bin, just tell the player he’s sin binned. If you’re looking for an easy way out, that’s the answer.

For me though, you have taken LOTG into your own hands so I do disagree with your call still. You’ve done that for match control and because it seems you just wanted to send a player off.

 

[Standard]

As Joe said though there’s a massive difference In terms of punishment. You can’t just randomly choose punishments to fit what you want. You’ve just cost a player a big fine that whilst they might be an annoying so and so, they didn’t deserve.



Now this I can understand a bit more when you talk about match control. Obviously though, you still have to go with the LOTG and you have to caution him for dissent and sin bin him. I still maintain your match control is more in order by using a sin bin than it is for a random red card out of nowhere. If you’re worried about match control though, just do what I see a lot of refs do. Don’t show the yellow for the sin bin, just tell the player he’s sin binned. If you’re looking for an easy way out, that’s the answer.

For me though, you have taken LOTG into your own hands so I do disagree with your call still. You’ve done that for match control and because it seems you just wanted to send a player

As Joe said though there’s a massive difference In terms of punishment. You can’t just randomly choose punishments to fit what you want. You’ve just cost a player a big fine that whilst they might be an annoying so and so, they didn’t deserve.



Now this I can understand a bit more when you talk about match control. Obviously though, you still have to go with the LOTG and you have to caution him for dissent and sin bin him. I still maintain your match control is more in order by using a sin bin than it is for a random red card out of nowhere. If you’re worried about match control though, just do what I see a lot of refs do. Don’t show the yellow for the sin bin, just tell the player he’s sin binned. If you’re looking for an easy way out, that’s the answer.

For me though, you have taken LOTG into your own hands so I do disagree with your call still. You’ve done that for match control and because it seems you just wanted to send a player off.

ok potentially, but id be able to defend either decision

 

[RustyRef]

When a player kicks the ball away you have to look at what they are trying to do. Are they trying to delay the restart, and often in this case it will be a little sly move of the ball rather than an obvious punt, in which case C4 is most appropriate.

But when they punt the ball away, especially when they are annoyed at a decision you have made, and even you yourself say it was done sarcastically, I'm struggling to see how that can be anything but dissent.

 

[Joshref]

ok potentially, but id be able to defend either decision

I’ll make this my last post unless your next response adds more or unless someone else offers their opinion on this, because I don’t wanna keep going in circles. Your original question was about whether or not what you did was correct in law and whether it helps your match control. To which my answer for both , and so far I think everyone else’s, was no.

You can defend either decision sure, but you know yourself what the correct call was. You keep bringing up that he sarcastically kicked the ball away. You keep bringing up that he deserved it for being annoying. That is DISSENT to a tee. And you aren’t really denying that except for one post, you’re just arguing delaying the restart of play Is an equally acceptable decision. Which, at a very large stretch it is.

But this case Is clearly an example of dissent. And again you know this, you’ve hinted it was dissent throughout your writing repeatedly Without explicitly saying it. I’m willing to presume you made a mistake, or that you bottled the sin bin because you didn’t want to deal with match control. But the more and more you talk, it’s like you were looking for an excuse To send a player off which I can’t condemn enough

 

[one]

I support @Standard 's decision here. Even if the intent was dissent here he has delayed the restart 'at the same time'. The referee chooses the more serious offence.

What I think Josh is trying to get at here is the importance of accuracy (and eventual) difference in punishment. A C4 caution (which I think is probably not correct) will result in a ban and a fine. A C2 dissent caution (probably correct) will result in only a caution fine and no ban.

When two offences at the same time, fine and ban don't determine which to chose. Lotg has an order for it .

 

[ChasObserverRefDeveloper]

When a player kicks the ball away you have to look at what they are trying to do. Are they trying to delay the restart, and often in this case it will be a little sly move of the ball rather than an obvious punt, in which case C4 is most appropriate.

But when they punt the ball away, especially when they are annoyed at a decision you have made, and even you yourself say it was done sarcastically, I'm struggling to see how that can be anything but dissent.

But in this case the last decision was a goal for the player's team, so dissent is a stretch(?)
I'm not sure how a player kicks the ball sarcastically but that's another story!

 

[JamesL]

But in this case the last decision was a goal for the player's team, so dissent is a stretch(?)
I'm not sure how a player kicks the ball sarcastically but that's another story!

I didn't realise if the referee made another decision that any previous decisions (ie his team mate being sent off) could no longer be dissented.