Common sense or Letter of the law?
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RegalRef
Politically Incorrect
Not @rsed about match control or club marks in that situation.
We're there to apply the laws not make sure people like us, will give us good marks or be popular.
If they want to think I've been harsh or unfair fine - I couldn't care less.
Should they want to question afterwards I will happy show them the relevant section of LOTG:
'A player who denies an obvious goal scoring opportunity by handball MUST by sent off'
This is a situation where football can learn a lot from rugby.
A lot of refs moan about not getting enough respect from players (myself being one), but if the majority of refs think that a red card would be the "right" decision in this circumstance, it is no wonder that there is a void between players and referees when we as referees are not there to benefit the game.
Part of my pre match is always "I'm here to make sure you enjoy the game and that it is safe and fair".
Maybe I've got the job description wrong but I am not going to subject a junior player to a ban from playing football for a technicality in an 18-0 defeat.
No wonder it is hard to shake the stereotypes that call us as referees "little hitlers, power mad, wooden" we're no longer focussed on benefitting the game, which is what I think should be the focus at grassroots level.
A lot of refs moan about not getting enough respect from players (myself being one), but if the majority of refs think that a red card would be the "right" decision in this circumstance, it is no wonder that there is a void between players and referees when we as referees are not there to benefit the game.
Part of my pre match is always "I'm here to make sure you enjoy the game and that it is safe and fair".
Maybe I've got the job description wrong but I am not going to subject a junior player to a ban from playing football for a technicality in an 18-0 defeat.
No wonder it is hard to shake the stereotypes that call us as referees "little hitlers, power mad, wooden" we're no longer focussed on benefitting the game, which is what I think should be the focus at grassroots level.
RegalRef
Politically Incorrect
Mate you HAVE to change that pre-match. Only 1 of those 3 things are true. I'll let you work out which.
You do have the job description wrong. You are there to implement the LOTG, nothing else.
So if you don't, well, to quote the phrase: You had one job...!
And while I agree about the lack of respect, for me in my experience that's only because players see on TV all the time players shouting and swearing at referees and think it is acceptable.
You really need to evaluate what you think the purpose of a referee is I'm afraid.
CapnBloodbeard
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The quote sounds like a misapplication. Every referee should agree with the quote - which is why we can bend the laws (or use our judgement on subjective scenarios), not break them. We get to choose how we apply the laws, not which ones to apply. So for a black-and-white or mandatory scenario, we're stuck.
The match control and club marks argument are kind of everything that's I don't like about refereeing philosophy these days (or, what promotion seems to be requiring.......if you have to blatantly break the LOTG to increase your promotion chances, then the system is broken). Match control...well, as I've said on here many times I think that's a self-defeating argument. You're just as likely to cause problems by taking the 'match control' option as you are actually doing your job. Yes, match control is relevant - but it's an argument that's only relevant up to a point.
Correct. Zero tolerance on dissent would be the greatest lesson we could learn.
I think your little hitler argument is a bit over the top - though courtesy of Godwin's Law, you've also conceded defeat with that one.
happy whistler
Active Member
had similar one a few years back when defender made great save on line score was 17-0 to opposition. I did red card him. It was only an u13 game and I reported full facts of score at time. CFA decided the sending off offence was sufficient punishment. I did my job correctly and CFA did the common sense bit.
Well I'm sorry guys but I still disagree.
There is no way that if a 12 year old kid handles the ball on the goal line, when he is already losing 17-0, he is getting sent off when I'm reffing. In past incidents I can't think of one person who has complained when I have "let off" kids in similar situations. Then again I've also been in situations at that age when I've suggested that a player gets taken off for 5/10 minutes to calm down instead of cautioning, again all resulting in a positive outcome.
The laws of the game are set for all types of football, but have to apply rigidly at the highest level. Now there is no way that you can referee the same way for a premier league match as you would an U11 Sunday game. The two are drastically different. We have a role to not only apply the lotg but to also educate players, promoting the game of football and upholding the values that the FA pride themselves on, such as respect, enjoyment, inclusion etc.
Not sending off kids for technical offences with 30 seconds left in the game when they're losing 17/18 - 0
There is no way that if a 12 year old kid handles the ball on the goal line, when he is already losing 17-0, he is getting sent off when I'm reffing. In past incidents I can't think of one person who has complained when I have "let off" kids in similar situations. Then again I've also been in situations at that age when I've suggested that a player gets taken off for 5/10 minutes to calm down instead of cautioning, again all resulting in a positive outcome.
The laws of the game are set for all types of football, but have to apply rigidly at the highest level. Now there is no way that you can referee the same way for a premier league match as you would an U11 Sunday game. The two are drastically different. We have a role to not only apply the lotg but to also educate players, promoting the game of football and upholding the values that the FA pride themselves on, such as respect, enjoyment, inclusion etc.
Not sending off kids for technical offences with 30 seconds left in the game when they're losing 17/18 - 0
CapnBloodbeard
RefChat Addict
Oh Dear Hull, looks like your can of worms hadn't been completely opened already!!
Why instead of cautioning? Why not caution and suggest that anyway?
What are you going to do if he comes straight back on the field and does it again? Then you have a player who, by every interpretation of the letter and spirit of the law, should be off.
Why instead of cautioning? Why not caution and suggest that anyway?
What are you going to do if he comes straight back on the field and does it again? Then you have a player who, by every interpretation of the letter and spirit of the law, should be off.
How are you educating someone by NOT teaching them the Laws they are expected to play under?
Common sense and the LOTG rarely, if ever, conflict with one another. He deliberately handled the ball to prevent a goal being scored. He knew what he was doing. He walks.
This. Yes, it can be excruciating for a team being beaten in this way, but consider whether you are also passively reinforcing players' beliefs that, when the chips are down, you can cheat (and potentially get away with it). If you want to empathise with the player/team, consider how the red card is administered, e.g. for the above example "Sorry young man, but you have prevented a goal by handling the ball. I have no choice but to dismiss you for denying a goal scoring opportunity". Will a player at that age be visibly upset - quite possibly. Will you get grief from the managers - more than likely (with the added bonus of the opposition team chipping-in in defence of the other team as well). And there's the education for all - everyone will go away from that game understanding that DOGSO-H will result in a player being dismissed - no ifs, no buts.
On my own part, a similar scenario happened to me my first season of refereeing. Last match of the season for both U11 teams, last seconds of the game. I don't recall the score at that point, but shot on goal past the keeper who was off his line, and a defender dives and does a fantastic save with one of his hands. Blow for penalty, and then think to myself "its their last game, the penalty is punishment enough". Went over to the managers before the penalty, and proposed that if they were both in agreement, as its their last game, I wouldn't dismiss the player. They agreed. Penalty scored. Full time whistle blown. Everybody went away (reasonably) happy. Would I ever do something similar again though? Absolutely not.
Am I missing something here that hasn't already been asked? I can't find an answer so I'll ask the question... What happened to the ball after the defender touched it? You don't state what actually happened; did it go in the goal? Was it tipped around the post / over the bar? I'm hoping that you awarded the penalty because the ball didn't go in... The reason I ask is that I have twice seen referees award a penalty for this, when the ball went into the goal! On one of these occasions, the resulting penalty was missed.
I'm one for hearts and minds as most know, but if this was DOGSOH, I'd dismiss without hesitation. At that age, they are more susceptible to change than OA men/women. So this would have been a learning curve for little Jonny/Jenny
As for the "chose another career", "you shouldn't be a referee" comments... The guy has asked for opinions. He's stated he's now learnt and understood what he should have done . Be constructive, don't say nonsense like that!
I'm one for hearts and minds as most know, but if this was DOGSOH, I'd dismiss without hesitation. At that age, they are more susceptible to change than OA men/women. So this would have been a learning curve for little Jonny/Jenny
As for the "chose another career", "you shouldn't be a referee" comments... The guy has asked for opinions. He's stated he's now learnt and understood what he should have done . Be constructive, don't say nonsense like that!
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i am very glad we dont have the club marks nonsense in scotland that is only asking for ferees not to do the job properly
CapnBloodbeard
RefChat Addict
Don't worry about that. In Australia we don't have club marks, but the assessors are so clueless/inept/biased that referees still get rewarded for not doing their job properly ;-)
One area I refereed in used club marks, but they didn't carry any weigh. Just gave the teams a feedback mechanism and drew attention to referees performing particularly poorly/well to prioritise an assessor. Problem is this was implemented at the result of long and heavy pressuring from the clubs............then after about a month we literally only had 2 reports, and that's with up to 800 games on a single weekend day!!
Raider025
The ref on the opposite side of the pond
@HullRef Look man, I understand your empathy, and if it weren't a mandatory send off, I think many people would agree with your views.
But when the situation requires a send-off, no matter the score or importance, you have to follow the law and send the player.I know it can be painful and against your nature, but when we wear the uniform of an official, we must do our jobs.
But when the situation requires a send-off, no matter the score or importance, you have to follow the law and send the player.I know it can be painful and against your nature, but when we wear the uniform of an official, we must do our jobs.
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