A&H

Cup Appointments - Just not fair IMO

J

Jack Phillips

New Member
Alright Lads, I am fairly new on here and love reading everyone's different opinions on absolutely everything. I have one question on Cup Game Appointments. I have noticed that, on the London FA Cup Appointments, the same names keep popping up and I just do not think that it is fair. I have only reffed a few Cup games due to 'Last minute drop outs' which I feel just isn't fair. If anyone knows, what is the selection process when appointing referees? Everyday I see people saying "Oh I've got 2 games to ref today, wish me luck!" and I am just sat here waiting for a last minute drop out...
 
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Appointments come down to three things when I am appointing to local cup competitions

Availability
Performance
Fitness

Availability means taking a game at the drop of a hat but also not closing many dates or timeslots. Closing a date is fine, giving backword is a cardinal sin. Also breaching competition rules can kill your season, e.g. playing extra time when you should go straight to penalties.

Performance is usually assessed on club marks, direct observation or whether the referee is on the promotion trail. One bad mark can kill future appointments, especially if justified by the club or corroborated by a trustworthy source.

Fitness means not just the ability to move around the field but also fit for that particular game. I have some referees I can trust anywhere any time. Others cannot deal with certain clubs or a certain level. This can be down to previous encounters or a lack of experience.

This doesn't mean I don't take a flyer every now and then to provide a referee with a good test. Most times it comes off and I see the referee grow. Other times, it doesn't work.

If you want those cup appointments, be available, perform consistently well and demonstrate you can cope with the pressures of a testing game. Don't cry it's not fair.
 
To take you through Brian's criteria and how they apply to me:

I did an early-round cup game earlier in the season, which I think went pretty well, was fairly well tempered and I presume I got decent club marks on. I was then appointed to a match in the next round, but had to cry off due to injury. Aside from that injury, I've been fairly available - I'm also a promotion candidate.

I've been given a junior county cup semi-final line. That seems pretty fair for me - as Brian says, I forced them to rearrange around me, which has to be a negative and haven't really done many cup matches as a result. But on the other hand, I'm a promotion candidate, that's going OK and I've been fairly flexible when fit.

If you want cup games, you have to be known by the county FA. That means get on the promotion scheme and do well at it. Be efficient when closing dates, but don't close too many. If opportunities come up to do academy games, extra training or anything else that gets your name known, try and volunteer. It's a tricky juggling act, but if you do a good job as a referee and push to work at a higher level, you'll start getting them almost by default.
 
Thanks Brian, that's a good insight.

As I said on another thread, its bound to vary from county to county.

I've never been on promotion and have always been happy with my appointments - had 1 CC (Youth) middle this season but have been given an O/A (4th Official) final - my 3rd in 15 years.

Does seem a bit random at times, a few years back got my first Womens FA Cup appointment (after 12 years) , then got three more that same season!

I didn't have a game NEXT Sunday, emailed County appointments officer offering to pick up any spares and 5 mins before my email he had received a cry off from a CC OA semi final line, so I now have that as well in 9 days time - sometimes its just luck!
 
PinnerPaul said:
Thanks Brian, that's a good insight.

As I said on another thread, its bound to vary from county to county.

I've never been on promotion and have always been happy with my appointments - had 1 CC (Youth) middle this season but have been given an O/A (4th Official) final - my 3rd in 15 years.

Does seem a bit random at times, a few years back got my first Womens FA Cup appointment (after 12 years) , then got three more that same season!

I didn't have a game NEXT Sunday, emailed County appointments officer offering to pick up any spares and 5 mins before my email he had received a cry off from a CC OA semi final line, so I now have that as well in 9 days time - sometimes its just luck!
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I don't appoint for the County, just for the local District (which is probably as big as some of the smaller Counties). Your final point about seeking out a game is a good example of increasing your availability and it working to your advantage. Wish more people did that on weekends when I am short of referees :)

GraemeS said:
To take you through Brian's criteria and how they apply to me:

I did an early-round cup game earlier in the season, which I think went pretty well, was fairly well tempered and I presume I got decent club marks on. I was then appointed to a match in the next round, but had to cry off due to injury. Aside from that injury, I've been fairly available - I'm also a promotion candidate.

I've been given a junior county cup semi-final line. That seems pretty fair for me - as Brian says, I forced them to rearrange around me, which has to be a negative and haven't really done many cup matches as a result. But on the other hand, I'm a promotion candidate, that's going OK and I've been fairly flexible when fit.

If you want cup games, you have to be known by the county FA. That means get on the promotion scheme and do well at it. Be efficient when closing dates, but don't close too many. If opportunities come up to do academy games, extra training or anything else that gets your name known, try and volunteer. It's a tricky juggling act, but if you do a good job as a referee and push to work at a higher level, you'll start getting them almost by default.
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Couldn't agree more. Also @GraemeS your comment about being injury reminds me, that injuries and emergencies don't always count against you. The key is good communication over injuries and as for emergencies, **** happens. Just make sure it is a genuine one, children's pets dying is not a good one, believe me.
 
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There is a little unfairness about to be fair!

I haven't officiated on the local district leagues for at least a year whilst I chase the glory of promotion. It does then seem a little galling that I get offered one of the cup finals. I was unable to pick it up because of county commitments but all the same there are plenty of 5s and 6-5s working on the district leagues week in and week out.

But you are absolutely right Brian that our ability and commitment is rewarded and the better appointments don't happen by chance.
 
The only thing I do not agree with with Cup (county or/and non-county) is when referees who do not officiate in the leagues get those league finals. For example, a level five who regularly gets Combination (step down from supply) here is appointed to a Junior League Cup final (non-county). Yet the guys who go out every single matchday in these leagues miss out. It's my belief that a referee who regularly officiated in a set League should be In with a shot to officiate at a cup final before the referees who do not referee in that league.
 
As its my first season I don't know how it works in Suffolk. I have been appointed a middle in a county cup youth tie, a middle in county schools game never found out what competition it was, and an AR for a semi final in one the local leagues. I am not expecting any appointment to any final but I do agree with DB that to be eligible to ref a county cup competition you should have done a set % of games in that league. Also if I don't have a game I will always make some phone calls and have always got a game when I offer my services. Also I try to be as flexible as possible for the distance I am prepared to travel. At youth level here in Suffolk it is 25 for a middle for 11 aside but no travel expenses so sometimes doing a game miles away seems to make my local FA happy.
 
Jack, you need to bear in mind that both London FA RDOs and the cup appointments officer were made redundant in November. There are now replacements in place but it is going to take time.

If you aren't happy then contact either the appointing officer, the workforce development officer, or the referee's committee.
 
RustyRef said:
Jack, you need to bear in mind that both London FA RDOs and the cup appointments officer were made redundant in November. There are now replacements in place but it is going to take time.

If you aren't happy then contact either the appointing officer, the workforce development officer, or the referee's committee.
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That is most unfortunate. I did not realise this, thank you for making me aware of this. I am sure things will smooth out over time. :)
 
DB said:
The only thing I do not agree with with Cup (county or/and non-county) is when referees who do not officiate in the leagues get those league finals. For example, a level five who regularly gets Combination (step down from supply) here is appointed to a Junior League Cup final (non-county). Yet the guys who go out every single matchday in these leagues miss out. It's my belief that a referee who regularly officiated in a set League should be In with a shot to officiate at a cup final before the referees who do not referee in that league.
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but you also have to take into account all of the other officials on the top leagues ... I officiate often on the Essex Senior League, arguably the best league in Essex to officiate on ... this season I have been given the AR Final on the Essex Sunday Junior Trophy ... I haven't done 1 game on that competition, or the leagues associated to it, and neither has 2 of the other 3 officials - but County want the best officials to cover finals, so they draw from this ..

I assume anyway.

in regards to be felt hard done by @Jack Phillips ... how long have you been officiating? I see you are 18, Level 7 - I have been refereeing 11 years, past 3 includes running the line on the ESL - this is my first County Cup final appointment, and my first County Cup game in general was last years round 1 of the Essex Senior Cup ... patience is a virtue my friend, don't go putting in complaints because that rubs people the wrong way - do your thing, be available, attend training course and be that little puppy that helps out at everything they can ... your time will come
 
Charlie Jones said:
but you also have to take into account all of the other officials on the top leagues ... I officiate often on the Essex Senior League, arguably the best league in Essex to officiate on ... this season I have been given the AR Final on the Essex Sunday Junior Trophy ... I haven't done 1 game on that competition, or the leagues associated to it, and neither has 2 of the other 3 officials - but County want the best officials to cover finals, so they draw from this ..

I assume anyway.

in regards to be felt hard done by @Jack Phillips ... how long have you been officiating? I see you are 18, Level 7 - I have been refereeing 11 years, past 3 includes running the line on the ESL - this is my first County Cup final appointment, and my first County Cup game in general was last years round 1 of the Essex Senior Cup ... patience is a virtue my friend, don't go putting in complaints because that rubs people the wrong way - do your thing, be available, attend training course and be that little puppy that helps out at everything they can ... your time will come
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I am not 'Putting in a complaint', I just wanted to share my view. Apologies if it came out the wrong way.

I totally agree with you that patience is a virtue. I'm just so eager to ref high level games! Reffing is just so much fun!

I appreciate your feedback mate. :)
 
Jack Phillips said:
I am not 'Putting in a complaint', I just wanted to share my view. Apologies if it came out the wrong way.

I totally agree with you that patience is a virtue. I'm just so eager to ref high level games! Reffing is just so much fun!

I appreciate your feedback mate. :)
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Sorry, I didn't mean to assume you actually was - I was more poo-hooing @RustyRef advice to contact the CFA and let them know.

with that attitude mate you will go far, trust me - like I say, just keep doing what you are doing and the time will come

I assume you are signed up to your local RA Society?
 
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