A&H

Dissent or Offinabus

M

Moortz

New Member
Level 6 Referee
Just after a bit of a straw poll here, I know it's subjective but I'm interested in what other refs think as I've not had this happen before.
Level 6 ref going up to 5 this season.
I'm quite chatty on the pitch, giving players an idea of if the things they are doing are likely to result in a free kick at some point (e.g arms in the back but not pushing, I'll tell the player to watch their arms because if they push it's gonna be a foul, good tackle but make sure you play the ball or its gonna be a free kick etc). Most teams and managers like it and its part of my game, especially with younger age groups (I don't do it so much with the adults).

U18s Girls game. 0-0. Good game, end to end, two well matched teams. Corner to the Red team, second half. I usually (especially at this level) give an instruction to the players in the box, keep your arms down, hands to yourself, no pushing or pulling shirts etc. Red player is on the keeper, and a Blue player is jostling with her (all ok so far). So I'm watching these two, and I say 'no pushing' as I do 99% of the time for corners in grassroots games. They carry on barging into each other quite aggressively, so I blow the whistle and tell the two players to stop it, expecting the usual innocent shrugs and pointing, but the blue defender says "God, you're wasting time, why don't you shut the **** up".

So now I pull the girl out of the box and call the captain over. Blue player carries on "for ****s sake ref" and "this is boring". The captain tells me that it's my fault for "interfering". I tell them both to shut up and listen to me, which is met with "you can't talk to us like that".

So - Yellow card and sin bin for 'dissent' for the blue player, or red card for 'Foul and abusive language'?
 
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This is the side of things I always struggle with. I have no issues identifying Cautions/Dismissals in any situation aside from the language. My First instinct here was firm talking to, then YC for Dissent and send to the Sin Bin, but I have a feeling most others will disagree. I may need to lower my bar for OFFINABUS Offences as the only times I have used them have been for Homophobic and Racist Language.
 
SalfordRef said:
This is the side of things I always struggle with. I have no issues identifying Cautions/Dismissals in any situation aside from the language. My First instinct here was firm talking to, then YC for Dissent and send to the Sin Bin, but I have a feeling most others will disagree. I may need to lower my bar for OFFINABUS Offences as the only times I have used them have been for Homophobic and Racist Language.
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I'd be prepared to issue a Sin Bin for: "God, you're wasting time, why don't you shut up", but the minute they decided to insert the swear word in there they have just earned themselves a free upgrade to a RC.

I agree it's tricky deciding where our own personal threshold lies.... As a parent I try to imagine my reaction if my own children spoke to me in the same way... Telling me to 'Go away' or 'Leave me alone' I can tolerate. Telling me to 'Shut up' would have consequences, but telling me to 'Shut the **** up' would be a whole world of escalation.

Or maybe think of it another way... Would you tell a player or a coach to 'Shut the **** up?'
 
My Mentor (Not an official County FA Mentor - but a 30+ year experienced former level 4 who I've known since before I passed my course) pulled me up on my tolerance levels being too high earlier in the season, and in particular the knock-on effect for future referees. I've certainly made a conscious effort to stamp down more on language.

You make a very good points about those small distinctions making the difference - something for me to take on board. Thanks.
 
Moortz said:
Just after a bit of a straw poll here, I know it's subjective but I'm interested in what other refs think as I've not had this happen before.
Level 6 ref going up to 5 this season.
I'm quite chatty on the pitch, giving players an idea of if the things they are doing are likely to result in a free kick at some point (e.g arms in the back but not pushing, I'll tell the player to watch their arms because if they push it's gonna be a foul, good tackle but make sure you play the ball or its gonna be a free kick etc). Most teams and managers like it and its part of my game, especially with younger age groups (I don't do it so much with the adults).

U18s Girls game. 0-0. Good game, end to end, two well matched teams. Corner to the Red team, second half. I usually (especially at this level) give an instruction to the players in the box, keep your arms down, hands to yourself, no pushing or pulling shirts etc. Red player is on the keeper, and a Blue player is jostling with her (all ok so far). So I'm watching these two, and I say 'no pushing' as I do 99% of the time for corners in grassroots games. They carry on barging into each other quite aggressively, so I blow the whistle and tell the two players to stop it, expecting the usual innocent shrugs and pointing, but the blue defender says "God, you're wasting time, why don't you shut the **** up".

So now I pull the girl out of the box and call the captain over. Blue player carries on "for ****s sake ref" and "this is boring". The captain tells me that it's my fault for "interfering". I tell them both to shut up and listen to me, which is met with "you can't talk to us like that".

So - Yellow card and sin bin for 'dissent' for the blue player, or red card for 'Foul and abusive language'?
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I'm probably someone who had a very high tolerance level, but I'd be sending them off for the "God, you're wasting time, why don't you shut the **** up" comment.

When you pulled them out, they're the kind of comments that would come down to how they're said for me.

Two bits of advice; I wouldn't tell a player to shut up. Especially if I hadn't had a positive interaction with them beforehand. This is only going to enflame the situation.

If you pull a player in along with their captain, I wouldn't bother interacting with the player. You have brought the captain over for a reason, use them. If the captain doesn't want to help you, just let them know that if they don't want to cooperate, you have no reason to use them going forward. Therefore each player on their team is that one step closer to disciplinary action as word of warning is of no use (or words to that affect- I used to say to captains at teamsheet exchange 'you know your players far better than I ever will. If I ask you to have a word with them, please do it, even if you agree with them over me. If I feel I can't use you, every player on your team is that one step closer to a caution')
 
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Moortz said:
Just after a bit of a straw poll here, I know it's subjective but I'm interested in what other refs think as I've not had this happen before.
Level 6 ref going up to 5 this season.
I'm quite chatty on the pitch, giving players an idea of if the things they are doing are likely to result in a free kick at some point (e.g arms in the back but not pushing, I'll tell the player to watch their arms because if they push it's gonna be a foul, good tackle but make sure you play the ball or its gonna be a free kick etc). Most teams and managers like it and its part of my game, especially with younger age groups (I don't do it so much with the adults).

U18s Girls game. 0-0. Good game, end to end, two well matched teams. Corner to the Red team, second half. I usually (especially at this level) give an instruction to the players in the box, keep your arms down, hands to yourself, no pushing or pulling shirts etc. Red player is on the keeper, and a Blue player is jostling with her (all ok so far). So I'm watching these two, and I say 'no pushing' as I do 99% of the time for corners in grassroots games. They carry on barging into each other quite aggressively, so I blow the whistle and tell the two players to stop it, expecting the usual innocent shrugs and pointing, but the blue defender says "God, you're wasting time, why don't you shut the **** up".

So now I pull the girl out of the box and call the captain over. Blue player carries on "for ****s sake ref" and "this is boring". The captain tells me that it's my fault for "interfering". I tell them both to shut up and listen to me, which is met with "you can't talk to us like that".

So - Yellow card and sin bin for 'dissent' for the blue player, or red card for 'Foul and abusive language'?
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Firstly, either option would be supported by an observer; so I won't worry too much about it. The important would be to take action.

On a different point, too much talking can result in problems. If you keep saying things like "No pushing" have you made a decision or giving advice; it can be difficult to separate in some player's minds.
 
lincs22 said:
Firstly, either option would be supported by an observer; so I won't worry too much about it. The important would be to take action.

On a different point, too much talking can result in problems. If you keep saying things like "No pushing" have you made a decision or giving advice; it can be difficult to separate in some player's minds.
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Brilliant point
 
lincs22 said:
Firstly, either option would be supported by an observer; so I won't worry too much about it. The important would be to take action.

On a different point, too much talking can result in problems. If you keep saying things like "No pushing" have you made a decision or giving advice; it can be difficult to separate in some player's minds.
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Something I was definitely guilty of in my early days of refereeing. Speaking to players can be a great thing, after all, its better to be proactive than reactive. BUT...... there's a fine balance between this and giving a running commentary that can become annoying and a bit like white noise.
 
Moortz said:
Just after a bit of a straw poll here, I know it's subjective but I'm interested in what other refs think as I've not had this happen before.
Level 6 ref going up to 5 this season.
I'm quite chatty on the pitch, giving players an idea of if the things they are doing are likely to result in a free kick at some point (e.g arms in the back but not pushing, I'll tell the player to watch their arms because if they push it's gonna be a foul, good tackle but make sure you play the ball or its gonna be a free kick etc). Most teams and managers like it and its part of my game, especially with younger age groups (I don't do it so much with the adults).

U18s Girls game. 0-0. Good game, end to end, two well matched teams. Corner to the Red team, second half. I usually (especially at this level) give an instruction to the players in the box, keep your arms down, hands to yourself, no pushing or pulling shirts etc. Red player is on the keeper, and a Blue player is jostling with her (all ok so far). So I'm watching these two, and I say 'no pushing' as I do 99% of the time for corners in grassroots games. They carry on barging into each other quite aggressively, so I blow the whistle and tell the two players to stop it, expecting the usual innocent shrugs and pointing, but the blue defender says "God, you're wasting time, why don't you shut the **** up".

So now I pull the girl out of the box and call the captain over. Blue player carries on "for ****s sake ref" and "this is boring". The captain tells me that it's my fault for "interfering". I tell them both to shut up and listen to me, which is met with "you can't talk to us like that".

So - Yellow card and sin bin for 'dissent' for the blue player, or red card for 'Foul and abusive language'?
Click to expand...
Was the "why don't you shut the **** up" definitely aimed at you or to the red player?

Not saying you're wrong at all just intrigued me.
 
Yeh probably avoid using definitives and keep it general like ‘keep it clean / tidy fellas’.

I agree with above, sin bin for comments like that and when swear is inserted it’s probably going into OFFIINABUS
 
Maybe just me, but I think I'd only be going dissent, but I can totally understand why others would want to go red.

Obviously the match situation and the aggression with which it is said could persuade me to upgrade it.
 
lincs22 said:
Firstly, either option would be supported by an observer; so I won't worry too much about it. The important would be to take action.

On a different point, too much talking can result in problems. If you keep saying things like "No pushing" have you made a decision or giving advice; it can be difficult to separate in some player's minds.
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Agree with everything including limiting the talking but disagree with the last point. The point makes sense when being read in a forum but on the field there is a lot more context to make it very clear that it's a 'directive' or a decision. For example one is said as a challenge is about to happen or is in progress the other is said after it's done. I sometimes use 'no foul' as a directive and it's has never been confused. In either case I don't think it matters much as when being vocal in these occasions is about making them aware of your presence. The words used is not as important as just being vocal. But as said, too much of it looses it's effectiveness.

On the choice of card for OP, I'd go 🍒 given the context provided.
 
Yellow s/b. But completely in the camp of supporting anyone who goes red.

It jumps straight past my threshold of getting the captain involved. Sin bin, see you in 10 played minutes, no one needs their captain to explain to them that telling the ref to STFU is unacceptable.

Just go away and see you in 10.
 
OldNavyRef said:
Yellow s/b. But completely in the camp of supporting anyone who goes red.

It jumps straight past my threshold of getting the captain involved. Sin bin, see you in 10 played minutes, no one needs their captain to explain to them that telling the ref to STFU is unacceptable.

Just go away and see you in 10.
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I'm onboard with this. I wouldn't personally be going red (absent further information), but definitely yellow. We don't have sinbins here, but I'd be giving a bollocking along with the caution and taking my sweet time about it - within reason.
Captain probably involved to justify taking a little longer.

Not a flashed caution because I think the talk is required to save face. Player and others need to know that they are skating.
 
Can't argue against a red straight away as it's foul language directed at you. I'd have already been thinking that maybe I'd leniently go for the sin bin whilst calling the captain over. But then as she swore again in your direction my thoughts on leniency would have dissipated.
 
Moortz said:
So - Yellow card and sin bin for 'dissent' for the blue player, or red card for 'Foul and abusive language'?
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Neither. :D

Dissent is public disagreement with a match official's decision. I don't think that's the case here.

A red card in this situation sounds about right but it would be for offensive and insulting language. I wouldn't term the words used as "abusive" and "foul" language in and of itself isn't an offence anyway - that's why it's not mentioned in the LOTG. ;)

Well, you did ask!! :p
 
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