A&H

goalkeeper red card incident

K

Kent Ref

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White v blue is an under 14s game. 6-1 to the Whites. 30 minutes left to play.

White's player goes past the GK and he is 2 or 3 yards outside the 6 yard line and he's directly in line with the penalty spot with the ball at his feet. No player within 10 yards of him.

Blue GK grabs white player by the shoulders and brings him to the ground. A rugby style tackle if you will.

I blow the whistle and call the keeper over. Keeper asks me if that's a yellow. I say no - you made no genuine attempt for the ball.

CAR referee comes over and tells me i cannot send him off as it's "double jeopardy". I know he's a qualified referee. I explain to him that if a player makes no genuine attempt for the ball then it should be a red card in this scenario. As he's only qualified in the last 12 months i explain how "double jeopardy" works in law.

At full time a member of the away contingent says he's an assessor / observer and i was wrong in law and he will be reporting me. When i asked his name he refused ( i was curious to see if he actually was an assessor / observer).

Have i got this decision wrong?
 
A&H International
based on what i see from the words you have typed you are absolutely correct


just the small % of care needed though, and I genuine do not mean to sound pedantic but its, an attempt, or, its not.
Try refrain from the media induced " genuine".
 
I think you aren’t a “qualified referee”, if you aren’t supporting a colleague, or two, you won’t give your name, then in my opinion, you lose any respect as a qualified referee/observer. They may have attended a referees course in the distant past but that is it.
 
Anubis said:
based on what i see from the words you have typed you are absolutely correct


just the small % of care needed though, and I genuine do not mean to sound pedantic but its, an attempt, or, its not.
Try refrain from the media induced " genuine".
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I take your point but has the FA supplied a list of what an attempt is / isn't?

For me i used genuine as the RDO used that in their definition on how to judge this.
 
The attempt, is down to our interpretation,

The use of genuine, is fabricated, It might give a laymans term description of what we are looking for. I think there has been a few threads on here recently on the topic. It is quite purely tho, an attempt. As James also posted, with a number of agreements. The RDO if he expressed the attempt had to be genuine, is sadly mistaken.

over riding factir tho, you correctly dismissed the gk



edit after James correcr post below, i have ( wrongly possibly) assumed this is now and not advice given few year ago. In which case, its up to the referee to keep abrest of revisions to the laws
 
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Kent Ref said:
I take your point but has the FA supplied a list of what an attempt is / isn't?

For me i used genuine as the RDO used that in their definition on how to judge this.
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Genuine was removed from the laws.
It was taught to us as any upper body (non footballing type) fouls were not attempts for the ball
 
JamesL said:
Genuine was removed from the laws.
It was taught to us as any upper body (non footballing type) fouls were not attempts for the ball
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What about a deliberate trip by the keeper - red or yellow? LOTG page 106 says red.

"no possibility to play the ball" is an extremely open opinion for the referee to decide on! This where i was getting the use of genuine from.
 
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Kent Ref said:
What about a deliberate trip by the keeper - red or yellow?
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Red

“Where a player commits an offence against an opponent within their own penalty area which denies an opponent an obvious goal-scoring opportunity and the referee awards a penalty kick, the offender is cautioned if the offence was an attempt to play the ball; in all other circumstances (e.g. holding, pulling, pushing, no possibility to play the ball etc.) the offending player must be sent off.”
 
Kent Ref said:
What about a deliberate trip by the keeper - red or yellow? LOTG page 106 says red.

"no possibility to play the ball" is an extremely open opinion for the referee to decide on! This where i was getting the use of genuine from.
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Depends what you mean by deliberate. Are you a mind reader?

Yes. The obvious he's hacked him down and it is not an attempt for the ball. Still red.
But as you'll also see from "page 106" the word genuine also does not appear so it's not required in our explanations.

It did. It was taken away. It simply has to be an attempt for the ball now. No need for it to be genuine.
 
JamesL said:
Depends what you mean by deliberate. Are you a mind reader?

Yes. The obvious he's hacked him down and it is not an attempt for the ball. Still red.
But as you'll also see from "page 106" the word genuine also does not appear so it's not required in our explanations.

It did. It was taken away. It simply has to be an attempt for the ball now. No need for it to be genuine.
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Thanks for trying to explain.

The ref now has to make a decision between "an attempt" as opposed to "a hack".

One refs "hack" is somebody else's "attempt".

A can of worms!
 
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Kent Ref said:
Thanks for trying to explain.

The ref now has to make a decision between "an attempt" as opposed to "a hack".

One refs "hack" is somebody else's "attempt".

A can of worms!
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The referee has to decide whether there was an attempt to play the ball . . . "hack" was used as an extreme example of that not being the case.
 
There's always a few 'tells' that give you the sweet scent of bull****!

'I'm an assessor' - actually they are called observers now, so anyone who is active would never call themselves an 'assessor'

'I'm a referee' - don't ask for their name, I always feign interest and ask "ohh cool, what level are you?" and watch them dig a hole. Funniest one I ever had was a guy who told me he was a Level 3 referee, looking at him it was obvious he wasn't, he couldn't have passed the fitness test if it was untimed, I played along though and asked him what leagues he was assigned to to which he said "he mostly helped out on kids football" and then made an excuse when I started asking about Contrib leagues and lining on the National League South 🤣

He may well have been a referee in the old 'class 3' days but was highly amusing to see someone dig themselves deeper with each passing second.
 
Kent Ref said:
Thanks for trying to explain.

The ref now has to make a decision between "an attempt" as opposed to "a hack".

One refs "hack" is somebody else's "attempt".

A can of worms!
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No, you are still using your opinion as to whether it is an attempt for the ball or not.

I used hack as an example of something which most likely is not an attempt.

As I say, once upon a time the word "genuine" lived in law 12 under Dogso. It isn't there anymore so it's not needed to justify our decisions.
 
A qualified referee acting as a CAR would also know they can’t enter the field of play to contest the decision. I would have issued a card for him as well there to be honest but in terms of the red, sounds to me like you got it spot on
 
JamesL said:
Depends what you mean by deliberate. Are you a mind reader?
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Just like to make some comments on this. In some ways yes the referees are expected to be 'mind readers'. 'Deliberate', 'attempt' or similar wording is used in many places of lotg. Good examples are handball and law circumvention. Referees are expected to use their experience and judge intention.
 
Kent Ref said:
At full time a member of the away contingent says he's an assessor / observer and i was wrong in law and he will be reporting me. When i asked his name he refused ( i was curious to see if he actually was an assessor / observer).
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The one certain thing with this - No Observer would report you for being wrong on law.

We would look at it as a development point, and maybe tell you quietly you were wrong, but never report you to a CFA.
 
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