A&H

How deliberate does a "backpass" have to be?

I know this is a growing trend in the way referees are taught, but I am not too fond of it if I'm honest. For me, being proactive is when you nip serious misconduct in the bud with words/cards. And yes, if there is grappling from both sides at a corner, I am likely to intervene. However, for other infringements (e.g. the back pass) I struggle with the logic and think there is a genuine risk of influencing the outcome of a match by creating a false level playing-field. You may be rewarding a team who do not know the nuances of this law and depriving the opposition (who have made the effort to understand it) of a rightful advantage. It is the same for warning defenders who are prone to indiscretions in DOGSO areas. Moreover, if we participate in the education of players, as I think we do, surely it is fairer to do the explaining after the fact?
That is just my view; I am happy to receive correctives.
 
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A&H International
SLI39 said:
I know this is a growing trend in the way referees are taught, but I am not too fond of it if I'm honest. For me, being proactive is when you nip serious misconduct in the bud with words/cards. And yes, if there is grappling from both sides at a corner, I am likely to intervene. However, for other infringements (e.g. the back pass) I struggle with the logic and think there is a genuine risk of influencing the outcome of a match by creating a false level playing-field. You may be rewarding a team who do not know the nuances of this law and depriving the opposition (who have made the effort to understand it) of a rightful advantage. It is the same for warning defenders who are prone to indiscretions in DOGSO areas. Moreover, if we participate in the education of players, as I think we do, surely it is fairer to do the explaining after the fact?
That is just my view; I am happy to receive correctives.
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not intended as a corrective but thinking aloud here.... if theres time for a team to ask you a question as the ball is rolling back to a keeper, whether its permissible for him to pick it up, would it not be ok to answer that question? you havent volunteered information there. The player is aware of the law, but wants clarification ?
 
Interesting one this on being asked. I really don't want to answer verbally something like this when the ball is in play as I think it could give an unfair advantage. However, I use the whole body to signal to ARs about the direction of throw/corner etc. so, in most cases, I am probably "signalling" by relaxed movement back up the pitch that I am expecting the GK to pick it up and kick from the hand. If I am more "aggressively" moving in with beady eyes and raising my whistle hand the GK is probably gonna guess they should hoof it!

This is a can of worms. As above there's lots of potential of for nonsense if you give an instruction when the ball is in play - easily misunderstood, or wilfully misheard. With offside situations we are not going to start to tell players who was active and who can still play the ball while the ball is still live are we?
 
SLI39 said:
You may be rewarding a team who do not know the nuances of this law and depriving the opposition (who have made the effort to understand it) of a rightful advantage. It is the same for warning defenders who are prone to indiscretions in DOGSO areas
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Happy to agree to disagree on this one. For me, it's one of those nuances of refereeing that comes down to personal preference rather than there being a right or wrong answer. As I mentioned above, I'm only getting involved when I think it's a borderline call where even a GK who is clear on the Law will be unsure of how I'm viewing the intent of the 'pass' by the defender. Happens pretty rarely but players seem appreciative when I shout to make clear my view ... never yet had an oposition player query my doing so
 
The word we're looking for is intentional I'd say the time I'd say it's a genuine pass back is a very long pass back to the keeper and he picks it up
 
SLI39 said:
I know this is a growing trend in the way referees are taught, but I am not too fond of it if I'm honest. For me, being proactive is when you nip serious misconduct in the bud with words/cards. And yes, if there is grappling from both sides at a corner, I am likely to intervene. However, for other infringements (e.g. the back pass) I struggle with the logic and think there is a genuine risk of influencing the outcome of a match by creating a false level playing-field. You may be rewarding a team who do not know the nuances of this law and depriving the opposition (who have made the effort to understand it) of a rightful advantage. It is the same for warning defenders who are prone to indiscretions in DOGSO areas. Moreover, if we participate in the education of players, as I think we do, surely it is fairer to do the explaining after the fact?
That is just my view; I am happy to receive correctives.
Click to expand...
Taught by who exactly?

Certainly not taught when they start on the new referees course. Certainly not taught if they join CORE or one of the other accelerated development programmes. Certainly not taught by observers who will observe them at least 9 times before they get to L4 and then where they'll be observed on average 10 times a season. Certainly not taught by the much reduced numbers of authorised Referee Tutors trained and provided by The FA.

So who does this "teaching" of which you speak?
 
Brian Hamilton said:
Taught by who exactly?

Certainly not taught when they start on the new referees course. Certainly not taught if they join CORE or one of the other accelerated development programmes. Certainly not taught by observers who will observe them at least 9 times before they get to L4 and then where they'll be observed on average 10 times a season. Certainly not taught by the much reduced numbers of authorised Referee Tutors trained and provided by The FA.

So who does this "teaching" of which you speak?
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thug-life-meme-walter-white.jpg

Go Brian..... Sort em out..... :) Marching on together!!! :confused:
 
If asked I would answer yes or no but I would notgive advice. A lot of the time I end up thinking the GK could have picked that up, but I think GKs at all grass roots levels err on the side of caution
 
Brian Hamilton said:
Taught by who exactly?

Certainly not taught when they start on the new referees course. Certainly not taught if they join CORE or one of the other accelerated development programmes. Certainly not taught by observers who will observe them at least 9 times before they get to L4 and then where they'll be observed on average 10 times a season. Certainly not taught by the much reduced numbers of authorised Referee Tutors trained and provided by The FA.

So who does this "teaching" of which you speak?
Click to expand...

I apologise if my intentions were not clear. Perhaps I should have written 'I assume...', but in any case my purpose was one of speculation or curiosity rather than antagonism against referees who have a different practice to my own.
I admit I have done no research into this issue, on which you are far better qualified. However, I can refer to several posts on this forum that approve of this type of refereeing, and I imagine that to have gained relatively widespread traction it must be a doctrine of some school of thought.
Are you aware of its origins?
 
SLI39 said:
I apologise if my intentions were not clear. Perhaps I should have written 'I assume...', but in any case my purpose was one of speculation or curiosity rather than antagonism against referees who have a different practice to my own.
I admit I have done no research into this issue, on which you are far better qualified. However, I can refer to several posts on this forum that approve of this type of refereeing, and I imagine that to have gained relatively widespread traction it must be a doctrine of some school of thought.
Are you aware of its origins?
Click to expand...
Referees (meaning Levels 4-7) trying to referee as if they are on the tv try this "management" technique, where, despite the "one game" protestations of many, it is not the same game. The player who turns out on Hackney Marshes in the Dog&Duck League Division 5 or even a decent Step 5 Supply League, is not, despite his own beliefs, worthy of earning £250,000 per week with a fan base of 400M around the world. Therefore he and the referees who look after his games will/should use different behaviours.

It is also caused by the trickle down effect of referees operating as assistants at a level above their own that causes a problem as they mimic what they see when lining.
 
What Brian is trying to say is they take things off the referee but also work to that referee's tolerance
 
ref craig said:
What Brian is trying to say is they take things off the referee but also work to that referee's tolerance
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What Brian is saying is, stop trying to run before you walk because all you will do is fall on your face and hurt yourself.

Baby steps before big steps. From big steps, jog. It's a marathon not a sprint.
 
That makes a lot of sense. I am all for trickle-down benefits, but referees have to understand that taking techniques, which are developed to cater to players of a super-professional standard, from their proper context and applying them to the grassroots game will produce confusion and inequalities. Digesting in a half-baked state what top referees spend years refining is counter-productive.
 
It's a good point that Brian makes. I tried to copy things that I learnt from level 3s, 2bs and 2as when I lined to them, and whilst some worked an equal number didn't. Equally things that I did as a level 3 make people look at me like I am mad when I repeat them as a L5 on Hackney Marshes, whereas others work really well. But the key thing is that something that works at one level won't necessarily work at a different one. Different players, different ability, different mentality and different expectations.

Whatever the level though I would always be happy to guide the keeper as to whether he or she could pick it up, and I don't ever recall getting any complaints about doing this,
 
I do that... "you can pick it up" or "don't pick it up". I remember playing goal a few seasons ago, a tackle went in at the halfway line, ball flew into the air and rolled into the penalty area for me to collect. As I kicked it out, referee blew for a backpass... I could not believe it!
 
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