A&H

It could be worse ...

RefJef

RefChat Addict
... we could be golfists.

A player in a major tournament incorrectly placed their ball an inch or two away from the actual spot during the third round on Saturday. No one spotted the error, the round finished, score cards signed and the final round commenced the next day.

A member of the public, watching the game the next day - on catch up - did spot the error and emailed in.

The player was subsequently docked two shots for the error, and another two shots for submitting an incorrect score card. She lost the tournament in a play off.

Full story can be read here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/golf/39476590
 
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I've haerd the "2 shots for signing an incorrect scorecard" thing before, which always strikes me as both bonkers and incredibly harsh. If someone had spotted this live and they'd corrected the mistake there and then, it would have only been 2 strokes and she would still have won the tournament.

In a world where TV cameras and viewer feedback can be used to give penalties, and a live scorecard will be displayed on TV at all times, what on earth is the justification for adding an extra penalty because the officials let them get to the end of the round before telling them they'd messed up?
 
That would be like if a goal was scored, then you saw the flag, disallowed it for offside then cautioned the player for kicking the ball away after he was offside!
 
I find it mad that if none of the officials spotted it, they're willing to use a TV spectator as a reason to go back and look at it again.

Either the officials spot it or they don't. If they don't, they can't punish it a day later because someone else did.
 
Surely this opens up a new experience for grass roots referees like myself to officiate at a higher level of the game. I can sit at home watching Chelsea, Barcelona, Bayern or whoever and phone up Sky whenever I see some indiscretion thereby ensuring proper sanction and fair play.
 
I heard this on the news yesterday, the worst thing was she was leading by 3 shots with something like five holes to go and an official approached her and told her she was being docked four shots, in the middle of her fricking round? WTF whoever thoughts lets tell this poor girl she has lost four shots with a few holes to go in probably her biggest chance of winning a competition. let her play if she ends up winning by 1 shot fine if not then she can't complain but to tell her mid round sorry that's appalling. :rage:
 
Or it would be like someone complaining that the referee did an incorrect restart after an incident, and the next day the match having to be replayed from the point on the clock that the original mistake had happened. I can't imagine that ever happening though. Oh, wait...
 
Or it would be like someone complaining that the referee did an incorrect restart after an incident, and the next day the match having to be replayed from the point on the clock that the original mistake had happened. I can't imagine that ever happening though. Oh, wait...
That's trivialising it a bit don't you think? It was 5 days later and awarding a free kick restart to the defence (Norway) instead of a retake of a penalty (to England) was an obvious error in law by the referee. And the score was 2-1 to Norway with 96 minutes on the clock.
 
That's trivialising it a bit don't you think? It was 5 days later and awarding a free kick restart to the defence (Norway) instead of a retake of a penalty (to England) was an obvious error in law by the referee. And the score was 2-1 to Norway with 96 minutes on the clock.
But the same points from above apply - how many officials were there that could have highlighted the error at the time (4th official screaming down the comm set at the ref). What if no "official" spotted this at all, or manager etc at the time, and someone at home watching it realised the mistake. Would we have expected the same outcome?
 
Trying to compare the Rules of Golf and the Laws of the Game (for Association Football) is like trying the compare chalk and cheese. If we look at it from a football referee's pair of eyes the decision against Lexi Thompson would appear completely ridiculous but in golf it makes sense given the rules as they stand.
The circumstances from which the decision arose is something different and the game of Golf has to consider these consequences so it moves forward in a sensible way but maintain the Rules of Golf in the modern age. This sort of trial by TV isn't unusual by the way and it occurs regularly but in this case the situation was slightly more unusual than most (I'll get back to it).
Firstly, it should be noted that Golf is played, for the most part, without the supervision of a referee or umpire. The game relies on the integrity of the individual to show consideration for other players and to abide by the Rules. All players should conduct themselves in a disciplined manner, demonstrating courtesy and sportsmanship at all times, irrespective of how competitive they may be. This is the spirit of the game of golf.
As I understand it, Lexi Thompson replaced her ball on the putting green in the wrong position. She placed her marker to the side of the ball, lifted the ball to clean it (as permitted) but when she replaced the ball, she placed the ball in front of the marker, not to the side of it. In theory the ball is now closer to the hole but also, the angle of the putt may have changed to avoid a spike mark on the green or a repaired pitch mark that could alter the ball's roll. This is a breach of the rule (20-1 by the way) and is subject to a two stroke penalty. Thompson doesn't have to declare this straightaway but her scorecard would be checked after her round is complete and must be 'signed for'. It should be noted that golfers exchange scorecards with their playing partner at the start of the round and they record both the scores on the scorecard before returning each others scorecard for checking and signing inside the scorers hut/clubhouse at the end of the round. This is the last moment available to Lexi Thompson to have declared her mistake because the onus is on the player to say she was wrong. Bear in mind, tournament Golf consists of 72 holes, divided into 4 rounds of 18 holes. This was day 3 and only 54 holes have been completed and she will have to sign her scorecard up to 4 times during a tournament. The tournament is not over and she is still liable to penalty until it is complete (possibly after the "weigh in", too).
For the most part, tournaments do not have enough rules officials to cover every player/playing group in a tournament but this was a 'major' event and would have had more than normal but they cannot physically watch and see everything that happens. From a rules official vantage point, he/she would have had a nigh on impossible task of identifying if the player replaced their ball incorrectly, they have have an incline but will only ask the player for clarification. The ultimate responsibility rests with the player and whether or not it was done deliberately is irrelevant. Getting branded a cheat is extremely damaging to an individual player who may lose opportunities to play and a damaged reputation as a result of it.
The greater scrutiny will come from television pictures which are clear and sharp and much better than the rules official will see. Therefore, the rules officials and tournament directors will use them to adjudicate and 'advise' the golfer before the scorecard is signed (witnessed by the playing partner, too who may also be the main beneficiary of the decision). The stimulus can unfortunately come from a TV viewer (although some have been outed as former rules officials). For all it's faults, it does act as a useful framework in preventing open cheating by players but it can be random and doesn't cover everyone. For example, who do the TV companies focus on during a final round? The leaders and the famous! Therefore, these are the players under greater scrutiny and that's unfair because not everyone in the field is being judged in the same way. For a player down the field, a forgetful moment is not picked up and a couple of extra places up the leader board is worth a few extra thousands of dollars/pounds/yen etc but for the contenders, a title can be won or lost. Also as I muted earlier, this was slightly different because the breach of the rule was noted the following day and Lexi Thompson was informed of this nearly 24 hours after it happened. A painful conversation to have for both the player and the rules official who tells her. How do you thing the rules official feels? Would you sleep well at night having knowingly ignored a rule infringement and seen the 'wrong' person win the tournament?
The R&A will now have to sit down with the USGA and discuss the rules in light of this incident but it could be that they react to the populist view and reject intervention by TV which is ironically, the opposite direction to that of football.
 
:yawn: so what you are saying is the girl made a mistake at the time her playing partner didn't pick up on it, but some a-hole with nothing better to do complained without actually knowing if she had declared it or not and she is then embarrassed by an official approaching her mid game to say oi you fecked up! Very mature approach by the golfing fraternity. I thought golf was supervised by a match referee they just doesn't follow every game on the course? If it wasn't picked up by the officials at the time it should have been ignored end of story!
 
the girl made a mistake
There's no way of knowing if it was a mistake or done intentionally. Pretty much like a player who falls over in the penalty area under the minimal of touches by a defender.

her playing partner didn't pick up on i
It's not their responsibility.

some a-hole with nothing better to do complained
The TV viewer has been known to be a rules official or, ex-rules official in the past and extremely unlikely to be some random.

without actually knowing if she had declared it or not
Would be plainly obvious from the scores of the previous round to see if the infringement had been called or not.

This isn't unusual.
  1. Padraig Harrington was once disqualified whilst leading in the third round because he failed to sign his scorecard after round one.
  2. Ed Oliver was disqualified from the 1940 US Open because he and a group of others, teed off their final round before the scheduled start time. His score was sufficient to earn a place in the play off for the title.
  3. Craig Stadler was disqualified (finished 2nd) because he used a towel on wet ground to kneel on while making a shot. He was told the following day because it was noticed on a highlights reel on TV.
  4. In 1990, Greg Norman disqualified himself before the 3rd round (while leading) because he'd taken a illegal drop from a water hazard on day one.
  5. Nick Price was once disqualified because his caddie moved an advertising board 25 yards ahead of his ball. The sign was classified an immovable object and he was entitled to a free drop instead of moving the board. Before signing the card, he was offered the chance to change his score but refused and DQ'd himself.
  6. In 1998, Lee Janzen disqualified himself for a breach of Rule 16-2, waiting too long for his putt to drop in the hole. This was only picked up by TV replays.
  7. Perhaps most famously, Roberto di Vicenzo (then the Open Champion) was denied a place in the Masters play off against Bob Goalby because he'd incorrectly signed his scorecard. He was still awarded 2nd because he'd signed for a score higher than he'd actually scored (66 instead of 65). The mistake was by his playing partner but he, and he alone, was responsible for checking the scorecard before signing.
And there's plenty more. :)

Football and Golf just aren't the same.
 
I have no problem with the 2 stroke penalty for incorrectly replacing the ball. That's a straightforward punishment for breaking the laws of golf in the same way a FK is the penalty for fouling an opponent is in football.

What I have a problem with is that the penalty is worse (in fact, twice as bad) purely because it wasn't spotted at the time. If she'd been told at the time that she'd done something illegal, the scorecards would have been adjusted and she would have been considered to have signed a correct scorecard. In essence, she's been punished twice as badly because the officials weren't doing a good enough job at the time. And because of this extra 2-stroke penalty, she's lost a tournament.

The football equivalent is a player committing a standard careless foul in the middle of the park that isn't spotted by the referee, then being punished by conceding a penalty when the VAR goes on to spot it. That's nonsensical - the punishment should be set in law and should be as consistent as possible, regardless of when it's spotted.
 
What I have a problem with is that the penalty is worse (in fact, twice as bad) purely because it wasn't spotted at the time. If she'd been told at the time that she'd done something illegal, the scorecards would have been adjusted and she would have been considered to have signed a correct scorecard. In essence, she's been punished twice as badly because the officials weren't doing a good enough job at the time. And because of this extra 2-stroke penalty, she's lost a tournament.
In days gone by, she'd have been disqualified.
It doesn't have to be spotted, it's the player's responsibility to call the penalty on themselves.
 
**PEDANT ALERT**
You know in football, referees get very uppity when people refers to the rules when in fact they are laws? Well, in golf they have rules not laws.
:rofl:
 
@Yampy I agree with @GraemeS on this one, if it wasn't spotted by the other player who has to sign the scorecard then she shouldn't be penalised, just because it happened to be when the TV cameras were on her doesn't mean others don't do it! I have seen plenty of times the ball placed slightly in front of the marker when the marker was slide under the ball clear and blatant. Just think if players mark their own card without proper officials then they bring it on themselves. Pathetic show by the governing body especially at a major, time to come into the 19th century let alone 20th for golf!
 
Another major difference between the 2 sports, professional golfers generally know the rules of golf better than professional footballers know the laws.

If you think the explanations of the laws of football are disproportional to the laws themselves, have a look out for a book called decisions on the rules of golf, it's a fascinating read btw
 
Another major difference between the 2 sports, professional golfers generally know the rules of golf better than professional footballers know the laws.

If you think the explanations of the laws of football are disproportional to the laws themselves, have a look out for a book called decisions on the rules of golf, it's a fascinating read btw
As a football and rugby referee I find the simplicity of football laws to be adequate...rugby ones are mad! As for golf :yawn::yawn: the rules that is not the actual game, well when the Norn Iron major winners are playing! C'mon Rory, Darren and Graeme!!!
 
The game relies on the integrity of the individual to show consideration for other players and to abide by the Rules.
It's not the other players responsibility, the fault lies purely and simply with Lexi Thompson. Whether it was a mistake, she just forgot or, some form of deceit it doesn't matter.
I once 'lost' a golf tournament many years back after I incorrectly took a drop from a lateral hazard whereas it should have been a drop from a water hazard. I realised on the green after holing out what I'd done and disqualified myself. It was the 17th green and I had a 3 shot lead at the time. The handicap committee still cut my handicap despite being disqualified.
Thankfully, I won my first tournament later that year and the respect you earn from your fellow golfers is immeasurable.
You may find the game boring or the rules anachronistic but you're responsible for your own actions in golf. Is it such a shame golf doesn't reflect modern life where it's more common to blame someone else for your own problems?
 
Well said Yampy.
However, it does seem that she is being punished twice for the same infringement. If the rules say you can go back and retrospectively add two penalty shots to your score, you surely should then have the opportunity to re-submit a new scorecard with the correct score? I know the rules say otherwise but that aspect of them needs reviewing. They were obviously written in a very different era when such an incident could never be imagined.
 
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