A&H

Liv Villa - Mings VAR

Offside for me is an easy decision. If it was a genuine deliberate play then the ball
Is clearing the stands from there. Gakpo incident - I can see why a red could have been given but think maybe the force wasn’t there. I will be asking the VAR Monday night what his thoughts were.
 
A&H International
The other big issue issue in the game, as I was watching it live on TV was Villa’s constant time wasting. Brentford are also the masters of this, i.e. a player goes down injured when a team is on the attack, or has won a corner. Completely takes the sting out of the game. Fair play to the ref who added 10mins yesterday, but this tactic really needs clamping down on, but not sure of any easy answers.
 
Muchomacho said:
The other big issue issue in the game, as I was watching it live on TV was Villa’s constant time wasting. Brentford are also the masters of this, i.e. a player goes down injured when a team is on the attack, or has won a corner. Completely takes the sting out of the game. Fair play to the ref who added 10mins yesterday, but this tactic really needs clamping down on, but not sure of any easy answers.
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Most games now tend to have the time added on due to time wasting etc. This follows on from the World Cup.

Wolves vs Everton & Sheff Wed vs Peterborough are prime examples
 
Muchomacho said:
The other big issue issue in the game, as I was watching it live on TV was Villa’s constant time wasting. Brentford are also the masters of this, i.e. a player goes down injured when a team is on the attack, or has won a corner. Completely takes the sting out of the game. Fair play to the ref who added 10mins yesterday, but this tactic really needs clamping down on, but not sure of any easy answers.
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The game continues and the physio enters the field with the referees permission to assess the player.
The game is only stopped for a serious injury if the physio calls for it.
If the physio calls for the game to be stopped then the player either is substituted or leaves the field of play and takes no further part or can't resume play for x minutes, has to be enough to deter feigning injury.

it'd never get off the ground I doubt and probably had some very big flaws but I can't see many other ways to resolve the issue of feigning injury or dragging out the assessment process.
 
Runner-Ref said:
Most games now tend to have the time added on due to time wasting etc. This follows on from the World Cup.

Wolves vs Everton & Sheff Wed vs Peterborough are prime examples
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Yes, was enough time for Liverpool to find a winner, but it is clearly a tactic used to stop momentum. Can’t blame the ref, as you cannot ignore a player holding his head, but players are deliberately doing it.
 
I think the only practical solution they can do is to add the time on as they’re doing.

Ultimately as referees, very few of us are actual doctors or physios, so we don’t really have a full understanding of what could be a serious injury.

Im sure we’ve all refereed games where we’re pretty certain that a player is play-acting and will suddenly jump up. It’s frustrating, but I’m not sure how much we can do

It needs to come from players and the clubs themselves, as it’s a tactic they’re employing. All clubs are guilty of it, but it’s only an issue when it’s the other team……..
 
JamesL said:
The game continues and the physio enters the field with the referees permission to assess the player.
The game is only stopped for a serious injury if the physio calls for it.
If the physio calls for the game to be stopped then the player either is substituted or leaves the field of play and takes no further part or can't resume play for x minutes, has to be enough to deter feigning injury.

it'd never get off the ground I doubt and probably had some very big flaws but I can't see many other ways to resolve the issue of feigning injury or dragging out the assessment process.
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Yes the rugby solution might not work in football, but sone interesting ideas. I suppose the only solution at the moment is ensuring time is added, but fans are getting increasingly frustrated by this ‘tactic’, and that’s what it is
 
Law 5: "stops play if a player is seriously injured and ensures that the player is removed from the field of play. An injured player may not be treated on the field of play and may only re-enter after play has restarted"
Stretcher off immediately for non-life threatening injuries, assess and treat off the f. o. p., return after miracle cure applied.🤔🙂
 
ChasObserverRefDeveloper said:
Law 5: "stops play if a player is seriously injured and ensures that the player is removed from the field of play. An injured player may not be treated on the field of play and may only re-enter after play has restarted"
Stretcher off immediately for non-life threatening injuries, assess and treat off the f. o. p., return after miracle cure applied.🤔🙂
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If only it was that simple
 
Wasn't that long ago that the only time players went down claiming cramp was late in extra time of the FA Cup Final on a hot day. These days if it's a close game, it's almost guaranteed a player in the team that's winning will claim cramp. It could be argued that player fitness and standard of pitches is far better than it's ever been, so fairly certain it's now a blatant disruption tactic.

Sadly football at the top has allowed gamesmanship and cheating to take over the game and has done very little to try to put a stop to it.
 
There's no easy answer. Even if they use a stadium clock and stop it for every stoppage that doesn't fix the problem, as the biggest issue is it breaks up any momentum the opposition have. Even at grass roots we see managers telling players to go down when they are under the cosh, this isn't to time waste, it is to take the pressure off their team.
 
lalec03 said:
How is it as straightforward as you say from the angle provided in the highlights?
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Any angle I’ve seen has shown attacker best Konate to the ball and then Konate trip him. Happy to be shown otherwise
 
Runner-Ref said:
Any angle I’ve seen has shown attacker best Konate to the ball and then Konate trip him. Happy to be shown otherwise
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I owe an apology, I’ve just seen the highlights from the Liverpool YouTube channel, better angle provided… the Sky Sports one made it look like Konaté won the ball! I can see he hasn’t.
 
for a start yellow card any player that rolls back onto the pitch to stop play. Every injured player needs to leave the pitch asap and play continue. All treatment to be done off the pitch, unless neck, back injury etc.
 
Therealcjhill said:
for a start yellow card any player that rolls back onto the pitch to stop play. Every injured player needs to leave the pitch asap and play continue. All treatment to be done off the pitch, unless neck, back injury etc.
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Technically injured players do have to leave the pitch asap, but the ‘asap’ isn’t something we control. It’s something the physio and doctor controls. They themselves won’t want to rush a player if they believe the player has an injury.
 
Ref X said:
I respectfully disagree! Thought VAR got this right.

Updates to Law 11 say...

He never has control of the ball so how can he deliberately play it? He's just trying to get any touch he can on the ball, IMO. The VAR shows it in slow-motion, which makes you think the kick might be a controlled clearance but it's not in real-time IMO.

Agreed Mings was lucky to only see yellow...
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A volley is a deliberate play but the player never has control of the ball. I think using that as a decisive criteria is an inaccurate way of thinking about the question - appreciate that makes it onto @Runner-Ref 's guidance, but to borrow their terminology, guidance =/= law.

And if we are taking the guidance as truth, I'd also point out that only one of the considerations (control) in the second slide is definitely not fulfilled. The movement of the ball is as expected and the view is unobstructed, and only the last two (which are really just 2 ways of saying the same thing) are maybes. And he still has time to stick out a leg and make the defensive play - as I've seen said a few times on social media, if VVD wasn't there to collect the clearance, that would be consider a top-tier defensive action. It's entirely reasonable to think that a defender in that position given the ability to pause time to choose an action would have chosen to try and play the ball out for the corner there.

Remember as well that this was given as a goal on field and the offside was recommended by VAR based on a subjective element. So we're looking for something that is Clearly and Obviously a not deliberate play - and for me regardless of what the right decision might actually be, this is a long was off being clearly an uncontrolled deflection. Right or wrong decision I can accept either way, but there's no case for a VAR intervention being correct here.
 
GraemeS said:
A volley is a deliberate play but the player never has control of the ball. I think using that as a decisive criteria is an inaccurate way of thinking about the question - appreciate that makes it onto @Runner-Ref 's guidance, but to borrow their terminology, guidance =/= law.

And if we are taking the guidance as truth, I'd also point out that only one of the considerations (control) in the second slide is definitely not fulfilled. The movement of the ball is as expected and the view is unobstructed, and only the last two (which are really just 2 ways of saying the same thing) are maybes. And he still has time to stick out a leg and make the defensive play - as I've seen said a few times on social media, if VVD wasn't there to collect the clearance, that would be consider a top-tier defensive action. It's entirely reasonable to think that a defender in that position given the ability to pause time to choose an action would have chosen to try and play the ball out for the corner there.

Remember as well that this was given as a goal on field and the offside was recommended by VAR based on a subjective element. So we're looking for something that is Clearly and Obviously a not deliberate play - and for me regardless of what the right decision might actually be, this is a long was off being clearly an uncontrolled deflection. Right or wrong decision I can accept either way, but there's no case for a VAR intervention being correct here.
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I personally do think this should be classed as deliberate (and therefore no offside) as he has clearly attempted to volley the ball. But under guidance from IFAB & PGMOL, it has to be given as offside.

The simplest way to think of deliberate under their guidance, is to think of deliberate play as a completely controlled play. This scenario was definitely not completely controlled.
 
Where in the law is this "completely controlled play" requirement you've just introduced? I've been flicking through the app (the official source of law since they stopped printing books) for the last 10 minutes and I can't find anything of the sort.

The law use the expression "deliberately plays" the ball - which is clearly what happened here. And regardless, even if we do accept these guidelines, I still maintain this doesn't go near C&O and getting the VAR involved.
 
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