This one needs its own thread but I'm not doing it...
I think there's guidance on this - if the kick is deliberate and intended for a teammate other than the GK, but the GK picks it up instead, that's an offence. So it's a deliberate kick of the ball to anywhere that the GK then touches.
Put it this way: if Kane wasn't there, and Lovren's miskick went to the GK, you wouldn't penalise the GK for picking it up. So obviously we do read "deliberately" in different ways for exactly the same action.
Not so. The law is pretty clear cut here. It has to be a deliberate kick to the keeper. Anything other than that the keeper is able to use his hands.@bloovee Correct, because the offence in the case of the goalkeeper is touching the ball, not the kick itself.
Conversely, with the offside, it is not what the player in an offside position is doing, but the kick itself.
They are two different examples that cannot be compared at all.
I am aware of the date. However while there has been changes (clarifications) on law 11, there has been nothing since 2014 regarding the definition of "deliberate play" which makes the content of that page (not the entire site) very relevant.That page is from 2014, it's very out of date (there is a disclaimer on the front page warning against this).
If you check their vimeo page (https://vimeo.com/offsideexplained/videos) they have the Lovren/Kane video uploaded and listed as one of their examples for not being offside.
That just about sums it up for me. Wrong process and rational leading to right decision. Which may be all good for this game but doing that in the long run you end up making wrong decisions more often than not.So, to summerise, Jon Moss makes an absolute Horlicks of a couple of KMI decisions in eventually getting them both correct.......maybe!
Why not?
Without wishing to derail the discussion much further - one requires solely a deliberate play, the other requires a deliberate play with the added caveat of to the keeper. Happy to continue this by PM if you like
You may well be right that enforcing the law in this way would be simpler and more straightforward (though the level of debate about the deliberateness of Lovren's kick suggests otherwise!). However this is absolutely not the intent of the law as it is currently written ... it was brought in solely to stop GKs picking up balls deliberately kicked to them by their team. Expanding it to any deliberately kicked ball at all would be at odds with this ...I agree and have always applied it as NLR suggests. I think a more a sensible interpretation of the law is that a deliberate kick that ends up being touched by the keeper's hands is punishable. This allows us to focus on empirical results rather than thorny questions of intent. It needn't even be reworded. I think the tendency to cite intent is a way of minimising game-changing decisions and corresponds with the wider benefit of the doubt keepers receive in their penalty area.
No! That's just wrong.......you're second guessing that a team have a set ploy to pass back to the keeper.......you may suspect it but you cannot 'know' it.I agree and have always applied it as NLR suggests. I think a more a sensible interpretation of the law is that a deliberate kick that ends up being touched by the keeper's hands is punishable. This allows us to focus on empirical results rather than thorny questions of intent. It needn't even be reworded. I think the tendency to cite intent is a way of minimising game-changing decisions and corresponds with the wider benefit of the doubt keepers receive in their penalty area.
No! That's just wrong.......you're second guessing that a team have a set ploy to pass back to the keeper.......you may suspect it but you cannot 'know' it.
Simply wrong in law.
That they did. It's definitely no longer valid.The USSF [...] subsequently withdraw that advice.
Come to think of it if both the incidents under dicussion here (offside and pen) been decided the other way it would have created just as much cortraversy and discussion. Some situation are just not black and white. You just have to got with the decision of the referee on the day.