A&H

Open Age Match Control or Coaching?

The Referee Store
Padfoot said:
Ok..lets spin around a bit....if the GK doesn't ask, do you still communicate whether it's ok to pick it up or not?

If not..why not?
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Because IMO that's effectively coaching, and unfair to the attacking team.

SM said:
Very different. Badly chosen example.

If players ask, just tell them. I'm not saying anything about whether or not he can pick it up unless requested to do so. It's usually some bizarre deflection or tackle anyway where a pick up is fine.
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I think it's a good comparison - both are technical infringements with no direct impact upon an opponent (as opposed to trying to tell a player not to commit a foul).
 
Padfoot said:
Ok..lets spin around a bit....if the GK doesn't ask, do you still communicate whether it's ok to pick it up or not?

If not..why not?
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No, not normally and that is the point you seem to have missed.

If a player asks the question, I will answer it - they are clearly unsure and seeking clarity before potentially committing an infringement. Giving a response is mothered ore a helpful and proactive piece of player management and all the participants will accept and acknowledge it as such.

If you don't answer in the question scenario and then penalise you risk control as players perceive you as a bit of a jobsworth.

If the player doesn't ask then they clearly already have an answer in their head as to whether it was a deliberate kick to them or not and will act accordingly. If their judgement differs from yours so be it, but at least players will not consider the offence as a result of ignorance/arrogance on your part.
 
never had it, but imagine if a player that was standing in an offside position with a team mate in posession asked " ref, am i offside ?"
would we answer that ? thats presuming we are in a relevant position to make that call of course
 
Going to throw this one out there.... whilst on the face it the defender is clearly intending to pass the ball to a team mate (not the keeper) and the keeper deliberately intercepts the pass with a shout of mine/leave/keeps etc, could this be classed as a case of attempting to circumvent the back pass law?

Even after all these years since it's introduction, the back pass law is still a thorny subject for some. Plenty of idiots out there who shout "back pass" when the ball is sliced from an attempted clearance or a defender makes a last ditch tackle and the ball goes through to the keeper. Likewise when you do give them, there's always one who wants to challenge it. Had one manager inform me I couldn't give a back pass against his team (after I had) because he hadn't taught his players yet! :confused:
 
Mooseybaby said:
Going to throw this one out there.... whilst on the face it the defender is clearly intending to pass the ball to a team mate (not the keeper) and the keeper deliberately intercepts the pass with a shout of mine/leave/keeps etc, could this be classed as a case of attempting to circumvent the back pass law?
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There will be people who agree with you but not I. :D

Law 12 clearly says that an indirect free kick must be awarded if the goalkeeper handles the ball which has been "deliberately kicked to him by a team mate".

GK is quite within his rights to make that call to intercept it if he wants. :)
 
ASM said:
No, not normally and that is the point you seem to have missed.

If a player asks the question, I will answer it - they are clearly unsure and seeking clarity before potentially committing an infringement. Giving a response is mothered ore a helpful and proactive piece of player management and all the participants will accept and acknowledge it as such.

If you don't answer in the question scenario and then penalise you risk control as players perceive you as a bit of a jobsworth.

If the player doesn't ask then they clearly already have an answer in their head as to whether it was a deliberate kick to them or not and will act accordingly. If their judgement differs from yours so be it, but at least players will not consider the offence as a result of ignorance/arrogance on your part.
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But once they ask, you are then advising on how to avoid an offence.....which is quite clearly coaching......

If they have any doubt about picking it up....then they should be using their feet....they should be told this by their coaches....instead they are often told to ask the ref.....
It's lazy coaching, lazy playing and encouraged by refs who indulge them in it.
 
Padfoot said:
It's lazy coaching, lazy playing and encouraged by refs who indulge them in it.
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Or ... it's players and referees working together to achieve a mutually satisfying game of football .. rather than taking up entrenched adversarial positions as some would prefer :rolleyes:.

So, @Padfoot purely out of interest. Are you also an opponent of a) the stepped approach .. 'coaching' players to avoid them re-offending and b) warning players of either / both sides about holding etc in advance of a corner being taken .. 'coaching' to avoid an offence being committed?
 
But why can't we do it more like rugby referees? I routinely call back passes - players appreciate it and nobody objects because I am consistent doing it. I also tell players who are maybe wandering back that they will be called offside. Keeps game moving and cuts that lottery element that I personally hate. At the end of the day the players I ref for aren't premier league - not even close to irish league - and if I can avoid avoidable trouble then I'll do it.
 
Kes said:
There will be people who agree with you but not I. :D
Law 12 clearly says that an indirect free kick must be awarded if the goalkeeper handles the ball which has been "deliberately kicked to him by a team mate".
GK is quite within his rights to make that call to intercept it if he wants. :)
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Well aware of what the law states thanks ;) I think we will agree to disagree on this one...

If that is legal, it opens up a whole can of ugly worms and why are teams not trying it? Regularly see teams play the ball across the defence in and out of the area, never once seen a keeper "intercept" a pass intended for an outfield team mate by deliberately handling it since the introduction of the pass back law.....
 
Mooseybaby said:
Well aware of what the law states thanks ;) I think we will agree to disagree on this one...

If that is legal, it opens up a whole can of ugly worms and why are teams not trying it? Regularly see teams play the ball across the defence in and out of the area, never once seen a keeper "intercept" a pass intended for an outfield team mate by deliberately handling it since the introduction of the pass back law.....
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I only quoted the Law 12 bit to emphasise my point and support why it is that I have that opinion mate, nothing more. Fact is, I've never observed it either but if you were to penalise a goalkeeper for doing it, apart from being extremely unpopular with his team, you'd be (technically) wrong.
Happy to disagree.... ;)
 
Russell Jones said:
Or ... it's players and referees working together to achieve a mutually satisfying game of football .. rather than taking up entrenched adversarial positions as some would prefer :rolleyes:.

So, @Padfoot purely out of interest. Are you also an opponent of a) the stepped approach .. 'coaching' players to avoid them re-offending and b) warning players of either / both sides about holding etc in advance of a corner being taken .. 'coaching' to avoid an offence being committed?
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A) the stepped approach has a place, but it is far too rigidly applied by a lot of young referees who believe that you have to follow it before going to the cards. Also, the further up the pyramid you go the more effective it becomes....generally on a typical Sunday league it is largely a waste of time.
B) I don't warn players about holding before a cnr kick is taken in terms of a general warning....however if we are waiting for the kick and I see too much grabbing shoving etc I will blow the whistle and warn the players about their conduct.....that isn't coaching...that is a warning about their behaviour.....
 
Padfoot said:
A) the stepped approach has a place, but it is far too rigidly applied by a lot of young referees who believe that you have to follow it before going to the cards. Also, the further up the pyramid you go the more effective it becomes....generally on a typical Sunday league it is largely a waste of time.
B) I don't warn players about holding before a cnr kick is taken in terms of a general warning....however if we are waiting for the kick and I see too much grabbing shoving etc I will blow the whistle and warn the players about their conduct.....that isn't coaching...that is a warning about their behaviour.....
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Thanks for clarifying. As I suspected, we have a full hat trick of disagreements :). Personally, I think there is a very fine line between 'warning about their behaviour' to avoid them offending and 'coaching' to avoid them offending .. but I'm reassured to see that the majority of those commenting on here fall firmly in a similar camp to me. And I'm guessing I've now taken this thread far enough 'off topic' :)
 
Mooseybaby said:
Well aware of what the law states thanks ;) I think we will agree to disagree on this one...

If that is legal, it opens up a whole can of ugly worms and why are teams not trying it? Regularly see teams play the ball across the defence in and out of the area, never once seen a keeper "intercept" a pass intended for an outfield team mate by deliberately handling it since the introduction of the pass back law.....
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I would think that circumvention would be a possible argument....but only if you thought they were doing it intentionally for that purpose. It's far, far more likely that it would be a bit of a miscommunication or some such, so you wouldn't go the circumvention route. While you're correct about the 'can of worms', there are a few that could be opened but never area (such as abusing the lack of 'reducing to equate' during KFTM), so I don't think that's going to be an issue - and if it is, maybe then consider circumvention.

But then again, it wouldn't be circumvention - because if they're doing it deliberately, then it is a deliberate kick to the keeper, isn't it? So just award the IFK. No need to go down the circumvention path at all.
 
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