The Ref Stop

New goal kick trick

QuaverRef said:
What’s the problem with this law (bar the obvious problems with the video in question)?

If I’m honest, each friendly I’ve done this season has been improved by this law. Most goalkeepers not opting to kick it long at any stage anymore and it’s definitely worked in encouraging teams to play it on the ground
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I agree the game is / will be improved by this law change (once teething problems like this circumvention are properly clarified).

What's the problem with it? Only that it makes positioning for referees from GK restarts a LOT more challenging .... :rolleyes:
 
The Ref Stop
one said:
Trick = a cunning act or scheme intended to deceive or outwit someone

Do you want to see a card 'trick'? The trick starts when I pull the deck of cards out of my pocket and ends when you say "wow, how did you do that?". The trick is not a single act picked in the process.

In the OP the trick (cunning act) starts from the moment th keeper lifts the ball and finishes when the keeper catches it. It is to deceive/outwit the referee into thinking they have not 'backpassed' the ball. Both the keeper and the defender are involved in the trick.
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In the context of this trickery, trick = any act which leaves IFAB red faced :oops:
 
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I have seen an email from a senior figure in refereeing department in The FA advising referee coaches for Contributory League referees that this is NOT a trick and should not be penalised.

I would expect formal guidance will be issued shortly by IFAB and The FA
 
Brian Hamilton said:
I have seen an email from a senior figure in refereeing department in The FA advising referee coaches for Contributory League referees that this is NOT a trick and should not be penalised.

I would expect formal guidance will be issued shortly by IFAB and The FA
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What do you think personally Brian? Should it be penalised?
 
one said:
What do you think personally Brian? Should it be penalised?
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If you want the short answer, personally, probably not.

If you want the long answer, then we need to consider the effect of the player's action. Is it simply that we, as referees, are affronted and indignant that this player has appeared to infringe the laws? In truth, the goalkeeper can now kick the ball from his hands and it will probably land within 9.15m of the halfway line in the opposition half of the field. If he has taken a long goal kick, would the ball have travelled a much shorter distance? So should it be penalised for the effect on the game, no, so I'm happy with the advice from The FA.

Edit: Also remember why the "backpass" "rule" was introduced, it was to prevent against timewasting by players constantly playing it between themselves and the goalkeeper to run down the clock and protect a lead. This type of action as seen in the OP does not result in any attempt to waste time.
 
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What, otherwise allowed action, constitutes a trick at a restart if this doesn’t?

It would be foolish of any team to take a goal kick in the traditional manner if they are going to knock it long.

May as well change the law so goalkeepers can just take goal kicks from their hands.
 
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Brian Hamilton said:
I have seen an email from a senior figure in refereeing department in The FA advising referee coaches for Contributory League referees that this is NOT a trick and should not be penalised.

I would expect formal guidance will be issued shortly by IFAB and The FA
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:confused: Who knows what to believe anymore

EDIT: what if they were to do this in open play? Would we view this differently?
 
Ganajin said:
So the trick is technically brought about when a player passes the ball to the GK...so it must be the player who gets cautioned here rather than the keeper.
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I disagree - what trick has the defender performed if he heads a ball that has arrived to him at head height? For me, it's the keeper, who flicks the ball up who has used a deliberate trick. The natural thing, if the ball is on the ground and you want to pass it to a nearby team mate in the quickest, most efficient way, is to kick it along the ground to them. The only reason for the keeper to flick it up like this, is to circumvent the law by using a contrived manner of getting the ball to the team mate's head.
 
Brian Hamilton said:
If you want the short answer, personally, probably not.

If you want the long answer, then we need to consider the effect of the player's action. Is it simply that we, as referees, are affronted and indignant that this player has appeared to infringe the laws? In truth, the goalkeeper can now kick the ball from his hands and it will probably land within 9.15m of the halfway line in the opposition half of the field. If he has taken a long goal kick, would the ball have travelled a much shorter distance? So should it be penalised for the effect on the game, no, so I'm happy with the advice from The FA.

Edit: Also remember why the "backpass" "rule" was introduced, it was to prevent against timewasting by players constantly playing it between themselves and the goalkeeper to run down the clock and protect a lead. This type of action as seen in the OP does not result in any attempt to waste time.
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I do disagree here, and agree with the below post. What would then be the point of the law that we should discourage trickery to circumvent the laws? If we agree this is allowed, why can't players then lie down and head it back? Hell, a defender can lay down in front of the keeper and let the keeper gently tap the ball to touch the defender's head before picking it up again. The idea of the goal kick in itself then becomes pointless. Unless we're willing to change the laws surrounding goal kicks, these sorts of tricks should not be encouraged. This is a trick in open play and, in my opinion, should be treated as such. It is not the act in itself that bothers me, more so that currently, it is a direct infricition of the laws and we have no basis not to punish it as it currently stands.

And as previously mentioned, IFAB should have seen this scenario coming and issued a statement or amendment alongside the law changes.
 
Brian Hamilton said:
If you want the short answer, personally, probably not.

If you want the long answer, then we need to consider the effect of the player's action. Is it simply that we, as referees, are affronted and indignant that this player has appeared to infringe the laws? In truth, the goalkeeper can now kick the ball from his hands and it will probably land within 9.15m of the halfway line in the opposition half of the field. If he has taken a long goal kick, would the ball have travelled a much shorter distance? So should it be penalised for the effect on the game, no, so I'm happy with the advice from The FA.

Edit: Also remember why the "backpass" "rule" was introduced, it was to prevent against timewasting by players constantly playing it between themselves and the goalkeeper to run down the clock and protect a lead. This type of action as seen in the OP does not result in any attempt to waste time.
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It didn't cause timewasting in this particular instance but you can certainly imagine it being used as a timewasting device if a team is 1-0 up late on. If you've got a goal kick teams will just take an age over taking it and then use this trick to get the ball back into the hands of the goalkeeper - no doubt most referees will then allow the goalkeeper to hold onto the ball for far longer than the 6 seconds permitted too!

Indeed, if this is permitted then what is to stop a goalkeeper regularly doing this in open play where there is not an attacker nearby?

I think that the disadvantages of allowing this significantly outweigh the advantages. It seems to very much go against the spirit of why the backpass law was introduced, not to mention that the amendment to the goal-kick law was seemingly intended to speed up the game and encourage playing from the back.
 
Brian Hamilton said:
I have seen an email from a senior figure in refereeing department in The FA advising referee coaches for Contributory League referees that this is NOT a trick and should not be penalised.
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TBH I don't actually believe this within the context of the debate in this thread. I mean I do believe BH that there is an email but I don't believe an official email from the FA means that the whole process in the OP can be repeated without punishment. It's probably another misunderstanding like the one from the Dutch Football tweeter account. But if it is the case and it is backed by IFAB, it would have a huge impact to the way the game is played given the number of goal kicks in the game. And as previously mentioned it wont be long before Law 16 is massively changed.
 
one said:
TBH I don't actually believe this within the context of the debate in this thread. I mean I do believe BH that there is an email but I don't believe an official email from the FA means that the whole process in the OP can be repeated without punishment. It's probably another misunderstanding like the one from the Dutch Football tweeter account. But if it is the case and it is backed by IFAB, it would have a huge impact to the way the game is played given the number of goal kicks in the game. And as previously mentioned it wont be long before Law 16 is massively changed.
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In that situation, those players, etc. NO OFFENCE
 
Jorik0907 said:
I do disagree here, and agree with the below post. What would then be the point of the law that we should discourage trickery to circumvent the laws? If we agree this is allowed, why can't players then lie down and head it back? Hell, a defender can lay down in front of the keeper and let the keeper gently tap the ball to touch the defender's head before picking it up again. The idea of the goal kick in itself then becomes pointless. Unless we're willing to change the laws surrounding goal kicks, these sorts of tricks should not be encouraged. This is a trick in open play and, in my opinion, should be treated as such. It is not the act in itself that bothers me, more so that currently, it is a direct infricition of the laws and we have no basis not to punish it as it currently stands.

And as previously mentioned, IFAB should have seen this scenario coming and issued a statement or amendment alongside the law changes.
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In that situation... oh you get the idea... NO OFFENCE COMMITTED
 
onthebrink said:
It didn't cause timewasting in this particular instance but you can certainly imagine it being used as a timewasting device if a team is 1-0 up late on. If you've got a goal kick teams will just take an age over taking it and then use this trick to get the ball back into the hands of the goalkeeper - no doubt most referees will then allow the goalkeeper to hold onto the ball for far longer than the 6 seconds permitted too!

Indeed, if this is permitted then what is to stop a goalkeeper regularly doing this in open play where there is not an attacker nearby?

I think that the disadvantages of allowing this significantly outweigh the advantages. It seems to very much go against the spirit of why the backpass law was introduced, not to mention that the amendment to the goal-kick law was seemingly intended to speed up the game and encourage playing from the back.
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Setting the bar high with that opening post of yours! Welcome to the forum and keep up the good work
 
Brian Hamilton said:
And that is exactly where your post should stop. In this particular instance, this particular set of circumstances, with these players in this position, there was no offence.
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(This isn’t a dig/moan etc, it’s just hard to word this question without sounding like I’m arguing, which I’m not). If this happened in a game when you were doing an observation, what would you say to the referee if they gave the indirect free kick and if they didn’t?
 
Brian Hamilton said:
And that is exactly where your post should stop. In this particular instance, this particular set of circumstances, with these players in this position, there was no offence.
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But I think you have to consider every interpretation of law within the broader context. It perhaps wasn't so much an issue in relation to timewasting in this specific instance because the ball was released immediately after but what about the potential instances when this isn't the case?

If this is not deemed to be circumventing the backpass laws then it would open up the possibility of a very similar tactic being legitimately used by different players in a slightly different instance in a slightly different position.

I think the most reasonable interpretation would be to outlaw this, given that if the goalkeeper wishes to kick it long they can do this unobstructed from the floor anyway.
 
Brian Hamilton said:
In that situation, those players, etc. NO OFFENCE
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I hope you have plenty of time to reply to all. :)

I take it you are saying the same act/play in another situation with other players it can be an offence?

So if in one game a player flicks the ball up and headers it to keeper and there is no time wasting (lets say they are losing 1-0 as in the past you mentioned that's an indicator), you wont caution. But if another player from the opposing team does it to time waste you would caution?
 
PLAY ON - no tricks involved here - just players ahead of the law...
Until IFAB amend wording - nout all any of us can do on this...
Note how NONE of the players appealed 😉
 
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