Yes, but you can't say that referees should get minimum wage and then say that they are self employed. They are either employed, in which case tax and minimum wage applies, or they aren't in which case there is no concept of minimum wage. You are tying yourself up in knots here.
not even minimum wage!
- Thread starter Kent Ref
- Start date
Yes, but you can't say that referees should get minimum wage and then say that they are self employed. They are either employed, in which case tax and minimum wage applies, or they aren't in which case there is no concept of minimum wage. You are tying yourself up in knots here.
So when he was in the championship and the premiership he was on £7 an hour? Stop pretending not to understand.
Claim your expenses
When you start to pay tax, you can reduce your tax bill by claiming for expenses. A percentage of your profits will be taxed (usually by 20%) but if you’re spending some of that profit back on the business, it’s not considered profit in the eyes of HMRC.
You can deduct the amount you spend on expenses from your profit figures and therefore reduce the amount you’ll owe in tax.
E.g. if you’re a hairdresser and charge £20 to colour someone’s hair but spent £5 on buying the dye, then you should be paying 20% income tax on £15 (£3 tax) rather than the full £20 (£4 tax).
I am saying we must have a value and that is not being met by a fair way. That's my point. I use minimum wage to describe what the cheapest wage is you can get away with if you employed somebody to do the job.
I disagree there.
Some competition rules require a referee to be at the ground 45 minutes to an hour before kick-off. To me, that should be 'paid time', and would include the warm up within that time frame. I think any sensible referee should warm up and it shouldn't be an optional thing either. But regardless you're on the 'clock' at that arrival time IMO.
And I think you're not off the clock until 10 minutes beyond full time personally. This doesn't factor in any pre or post admin work that you have to do at home, or with the increase of technology, that you're expected to do post-match now. (For example: With COMET the guidelines prefer you to do it in the dressing rooms immediately post-match, so if you've had a busy game that can add some time on.)
So, a local league game for example, taking in the above factors would clock in at almost £7 an hour excluding expenses.
I'm not too fussed about the money, but I think these factors do need to be considered. If you get a competition with a 45-60 minute arrival time slot and you're setting off on a lengthy journey, that can be a full day.
I only agree in part, because it glosses over some factors:
For example:
Which really glosses over the potential abuse that referees face, especially youngsters. There's a reason refereeing retention rates are low and I'm not entirely surprised young referees are a rare commodity in this day and age. Who the bloody hell enjoys getting shouted at?
or this:
Which completely ignores that the mileage rates isn't just for fuel, it's for the maintenance of the car - at least that's what I've always been told, and rarely does a football league/competition ever come close to the national rate for mileage payments. At least, I've never heard of any competitions in Wales coming close. And get this, some competitions forgo mileage altogether!
Imagine that. I'd be cheeky and put down everything for that.
"Porridge - breakfast fuel for the football game: £5 a box"
If they say I'm taking the mickey with that price I'll just say I'm only allowed to buy from "approved sources" on a fancy list, like all the corporations do, you know the type, contracts with no-name companies giving you crappy products at 150% mark ups.
Throw in the gym membership and weekly massages, I'd never pay them a penny!
socal lurker
RefChat Addict
Imagine that. I'd be cheeky and put down everything for that.
"Porridge - breakfast fuel for the football game: £5 a box"
If they say I'm taking the mickey with that price I'll just say I'm only allowed to buy from "approved sources" on a fancy list, like all the corporations do, you know the type, contracts with no-name companies giving you crappy products at 150% mark ups.
Throw in the gym membership and weekly massages, I'd never pay them a penny!
I hope your HMRC is far more forgiving than our IRS on this side of the pond!
Does your employer pay you your commute to work?
You are providing a service to football at a set fee. If you don't like the fee don't take the game. It's really that easy.
If fees go up much more the game will die at grassroots and then you won't get a dime as there will be no games to referee.
I was hearing the other day grassroots rugby refs don't get a fee at all....
Of you make a loss you can offset that against your employment income and claim tax back.I disagree there.
Some competition rules require a referee to be at the ground 45 minutes to an hour before kick-off. To me, that should be 'paid time', and would include the warm up within that time frame. I think any sensible referee should warm up and it shouldn't be an optional thing either. But regardless you're on the 'clock' at that arrival time IMO.
And I think you're not off the clock until 10 minutes beyond full time personally. This doesn't factor in any pre or post admin work that you have to do at home, or with the increase of technology, that you're expected to do post-match now. (For example: With COMET the guidelines prefer you to do it in the dressing rooms immediately post-match, so if you've had a busy game that can add some time on.)
So, a local league game for example, taking in the above factors would clock in at almost £7 an hour excluding expenses.
I'm not too fussed about the money, but I think these factors do need to be considered. If you get a competition with a 45-60 minute arrival time slot and you're setting off on a lengthy journey, that can be a full day.
I only agree in part, because it glosses over some factors:
For example:
Which really glosses over the potential abuse that referees face, especially youngsters. There's a reason refereeing retention rates are low and I'm not entirely surprised young referees are a rare commodity in this day and age. Who the bloody hell enjoys getting shouted at?
or this:
Which completely ignores that the mileage rates isn't just for fuel, it's for the maintenance of the car - at least that's what I've always been told, and rarely does a football league/competition ever come close to the national rate for mileage payments. At least, I've never heard of any competitions in Wales coming close. And get this, some competitions forgo mileage altogether!
Imagine that. I'd be cheeky and put down everything for that.
"Porridge - breakfast fuel for the football game: £5 a box"
If they say I'm taking the mickey with that price I'll just say I'm only allowed to buy from "approved sources" on a fancy list, like all the corporations do, you know the type, contracts with no-name companies giving you crappy products at 150% mark ups.
Throw in the gym membership and weekly massages, I'd never pay them a penny!
Only if you are willing to declare the profit as well.
While HMRC will allow you £1000 of income for hobbies, they don’t allow recurring claims for losses. Losses are only allowable if the associated activity is carried on to produce a taxable profit....
The only solution to get the minimum wage is that referees are employees of the FA. They (or your CFA) would pay you, with deductions for PAYE. Have you ever had anything paid by the FA - you would be lucky to get play within 2 months of the match!
Then, as employees, you would have obligations including attending training courses if they required you to both on the LOTG and physical.
Im not sure 'minimum wage' is the way to look at it as has been discussed here already. It's purely about whether the money is enough for you, alongside the development/progression side of this hobby too. I earn roughly £350 a month from refereeing. Im stable financially and I'm in my mid 30s. I'd like to progress to a level 5 and see if further progression is possible for me and if my life outside of Football could work alongside the travelling etc. Is roughly £30 a game enough for me? I suppose it is at the moment all things considered. If I was 16 then it certainly would be. Would it be enough when I'm mid 50s and only doing 1 game a weekend and no interest in progression, id suggest not but I may well think differently.
For comparison, the local cricket league I play in has struggled for both players and umpires over the last few years. Last year they increased the umpire fees to £50 from £25. Every match was covered across the season for the first time in a number of years. Cricket has the same issues with player reduction and financial difficulties. In fact the numbers are considerably worse on the playing side. This isn't to say that doubling the fee would work in football, As there's a different dynamic. But it has absolutely worked in cricket and it's something to consider when you consider the shortage of referees in some areas. I did a County Cup game this weekend and the home team hadn't played 2 fixtures this season as there was no ref.
For comparison, the local cricket league I play in has struggled for both players and umpires over the last few years. Last year they increased the umpire fees to £50 from £25. Every match was covered across the season for the first time in a number of years. Cricket has the same issues with player reduction and financial difficulties. In fact the numbers are considerably worse on the playing side. This isn't to say that doubling the fee would work in football, As there's a different dynamic. But it has absolutely worked in cricket and it's something to consider when you consider the shortage of referees in some areas. I did a County Cup game this weekend and the home team hadn't played 2 fixtures this season as there was no ref.
PinnerPaul
RefChat Addict
Spot on James - not many jobs pay to get to/from work.
Kes
I'll Decide ...
But, as Rusty has already pointed out, the people paying you aren't large corporations with huge spondoolies in their coffers mate. It's ultimately the small grass roots home team that are paying you from the monies they've collected in subs from the players. With grass roots football clubs folding all over the place due to lack of interest (coaches who no longer want to give up their spare time for free/ players who can't actually be bothered to pay a £5 sub fee for the privilege of being hammered 8 - nil most saturdays, financial reasons etc.) where on earth would you suppose a "doubling" of referees fees would come from?
On the face of it, I'd rather play devil's advocate on this one and look at it from the clubs/teams point of view.
As a player, if my coach or club secretary told me that my subs per game were being doubled in order to give a decent "wage" to the referees, I'd be wanting to know how and why when the little fat bloke in his 60s who clearly isn't going for promotion and probably hasn't been observed/assessed in years turns up to referee my match.
Grass roots football is what it is. If the people whom you're working for aren't being paid themselves - don't expect anything but peanuts for yourself.
But, as Rusty has already pointed out, the people paying you aren't large corporations with huge spondoolies in their coffers mate. It's ultimately the small grass roots home team that are paying you from the monies they've collected in subs from the players. With grass roots football clubs folding all over the place due to lack of interest (coaches who no longer want to give up their spare time for free/ players who can't actually be bothered to pay a £5 sub fee for the privilege of being hammered 8 - nil most saturdays, financial reasons etc.) where on earth would you suppose a "doubling" of referees fees would come from?
On the face of it, I'd rather play devil's advocate on this one and look at it from the clubs/teams point of view.
As a player, if my coach or club secretary told me that my subs per game were being doubled in order to give a decent "wage" to the referees, I'd be wanting to know how and why when the little fat bloke in his 60s who clearly isn't going for promotion and probably hasn't been observed/assessed in years turns up to referee my match.
Grass roots football is what it is. If the people whom you're working for aren't being paid themselves - don't expect anything but peanuts for yourself.
Having played OA football from 16 to 33, both being paid and paying subs to play, I'm well versed in how football at grass roots level is funded. My original post was not a demand for a doubling of fees. It showed how doing that has worked in a local cricket league, with the number of umpires increasing. Grass roots cricket has the same financial issues as football, but has worse issues with teams folding and players numbers falling. I also stated that just because it has worked in cricket, doesn't mean it will work in football. But there is an attitude that it can't work and clubs csnt afford it. Well that is the same attitude as in the cricket league for years as numbers dwindled, but they were wrong and it was trialled and it's been a roaring success. Also bear in mind that it's increasingly common to see grass roots clubs offer much higher fees than the nominal fee for refs on their social media accounts, due to a lack of refs.
Again, I'm not saying it's the answer, but I am saying that it has worked in another sport and it's worth considering, especially as numbers continue to dwindle. A new trial of thought is required.
I also stated that the match fees are good enough for me at this point in my life. I'll be refereeing whether the fees changed or not.
Kes
I'll Decide ...
I'm not disputing your football background Ben, nor did I say you were suggesting that doubling fees was the answer.
You have however (twice now) alluded to the idea that it could work. My point was, (and still is) that it couldn't work because:
a. 90% of grass roots clubs couldn't afford it
and
b. The refereeing standard wouldn't be any different to what it is now.
I don't know where you referee or to what standard mate, but I can certainly tell you this - to put up the ref's standard fee where I operate to £50 and £60 respectively, would simply not be sustainable.
For most it is a hobby we get paid for as we most of the time enjoy it. It is a bout being involved in football. My match fees range from 18 to 35.
pin money. There are some senior games on the line where with travelling I might be away for 4 or 5 hours including travel but I am doing a higher standard of footie and working with other refs so normally gossiping like mad apart from the 90 mins. I dont do it for the money but I think it is ok money for what we do.
pin money. There are some senior games on the line where with travelling I might be away for 4 or 5 hours including travel but I am doing a higher standard of footie and working with other refs so normally gossiping like mad apart from the 90 mins. I dont do it for the money but I think it is ok money for what we do.
Not surprising. The county my parents live in has gone to the papers to point out that umpiring numbers are so low that when retirement comes for the current crop of elderly umpires, there simply will not be enough umpires to cover the second division.
They've had issues getting people in and getting people to stay. Abuse is apparently quite commonplace in cricket as well, which has surprised me as I thought it would be a more calmer game?
I have to dispute that as my brother is a rugby referee and has been for 5 years and he has always been paid. The furthest he has to go is 12 miles and closest is 2 miles. He gets £35 plus mileage plus a free meal and drinks after. He only does Saturdays PM.
I'm not disputing your football background Ben, nor did I say you were suggesting that doubling fees was the answer.
You have however (twice now) alluded to the idea that it could work. My point was, (and still is) that it couldn't work because:
a. 90% of grass roots clubs couldn't afford it
and
b. The refereeing standard wouldn't be any different to what it is now.
I don't know where you referee or to what standard mate, but I can certainly tell you this - to put up the ref's standard fee where I operate to £50 and £60 respectively, would simply not be sustainable.
If each home team player paid a £1 extra per home game that extra revenue would help (£11-£18 per home game).
If you think a player (his parents) could not afford £1 a game i think you're wrong.
I maintain that referees should be paid fairly, hobby or not.
If my hobby takes 3 hours then that's 3 hours of time. If it's 2 then it's 2.
Nobody is suggesting referee fees should double. That would be ridiculous.But, as Rusty has already pointed out, the people paying you aren't large corporations with huge spondoolies in their coffers mate. It's ultimately the small grass roots home team that are paying you from the monies they've collected in subs from the players. With grass roots football clubs folding all over the place due to lack of interest (coaches who no longer want to give up their spare time for free/ players who can't actually be bothered to pay a £5 sub fee for the privilege of being hammered 8 - nil most saturdays, financial reasons etc.) where on earth would you suppose a "doubling" of referees fees would come from?
On the face of it, I'd rather play devil's advocate on this one and look at it from the clubs/teams point of view.
As a player, if my coach or club secretary told me that my subs per game were being doubled in order to give a decent "wage" to the referees, I'd be wanting to know how and why when the little fat bloke in his 60s who clearly isn't going for promotion and probably hasn't been observed/assessed in years turns up to referee my match.
Grass roots football is what it is. If the people whom you're working for aren't being paid themselves - don't expect anything but peanuts for yourself.