The Ref Stop

Junior/Youth Rolling Subs

Bantam Ron

New Member
Level 7 Referee
Today i had an u16 game, no problems and all going.....too well!! Blues went from 2-0 to 4-0 deep in second half when I notice a player going off the field and a player in the Greens saying "ref they have had 12 men on the field". Nothing further was said.
This was a game of rolling subs with each team having 3 subs, so lots of substitutions. I basically have no option but to trust the managers to get it right or else I've got to count whos on the field everytime especially as at most stoppages players went near the sideline for a quick drink.
Question - has anyone got any tips for managing rolling subs that doesn't involve the match lasting until midnight?
Also, if indeed the team had been playing with 12 (and I suspect for a v short while they may have been unintentionally) what should the ref do? (apart from dig a big hole!!!)
Cheers
 
The Ref Stop
If you managed the substitution properly the problem shouldn't arise.

You still should be supervising things, 1 off and 1 on, half way line etc.

Buck stops with you.....can't blame the managers if you aren't following the procedure correctly.
 
I always ask managers/coaches that there subs must where a bib or training top. Before kick-off I'll count all the players and then subs (which should be wearing bibs or the training top). Works 9 times out of 10.
 
Thanks Will, that sound like great advice I'll give it a go. There must have been 30 substitutions today. it seemed like everytime the ball went out both teams swapped someone or half a team about and because it was boiling, half the team ran and got a drink.....mental!!!
Cheers
 
If it was hot did you agree to have a drinks break during the half?

Aside from that, ref's responsibility to manage the subs. If there's 30 subs a half, so be it. Enjoy the fact that you get a lot of rest :)
 
I basically have no option but to trust the managers to get it right

Yes you do!

Managing the substitutions is a key part of the referees responsibilities and there are plenty of ways to control this. LOTG has well defined substitution procedures. Previous advice re bibs is good. Even with rolling subs, at U16s changes should be happening at a stoppage in play. Make the managers, coaches and players aware of this requirement in your pre match briefing. When subs happen make sure you go across and deal with it.
 
Today i had an u16 game, no problems and all going.....too well!! Blues went from 2-0 to 4-0 deep in second half when I notice a player going off the field and a player in the Greens saying "ref they have had 12 men on the field". Nothing further was said.
This was a game of rolling subs with each team having 3 subs, so lots of substitutions. I basically have no option but to trust the managers to get it right or else I've got to count whos on the field everytime especially as at most stoppages players went near the sideline for a quick drink.
Question - has anyone got any tips for managing rolling subs that doesn't involve the match lasting until midnight?
Also, if indeed the team had been playing with 12 (and I suspect for a v short while they may have been unintentionally) what should the ref do? (apart from dig a big hole!!!)
Cheers
Sorry @Bantam Ron but I have to agree with @Padfoot. It's your responsibility to ensure the substitution procedure is followed correctly each time and not the manager or coach. To put it frankly, they don't give a damn about anyone but themselves. If it takes 2 hours to complete a match because of substitutions, then so be it but remember, you're the sole arbiter on additional time, too.
If you want advice, I was given this in my first assessment - Never allow 23 players on the pitch.
 
I call managers, CARs and captains to the middle before kick-off. I brief the CARs, and also ask the managers (where no team sheets) whether they have subs. If so, let me know when you want to substitute, but then wait for my signal. First time they just roll players without permission, a word with the manager. Second time, two mandatory cautions. It then won't happen a third time.
 
Today i had an u16 game, no problems and all going.....too well!! Blues went from 2-0 to 4-0 deep in second half when I notice a player going off the field and a player in the Greens saying "ref they have had 12 men on the field". Nothing further was said.
This was a game of rolling subs with each team having 3 subs, so lots of substitutions. I basically have no option but to trust the managers to get it right or else I've got to count whos on the field everytime especially as at most stoppages players went near the sideline for a quick drink.
Question - has anyone got any tips for managing rolling subs that doesn't involve the match lasting until midnight?
Also, if indeed the team had been playing with 12 (and I suspect for a v short while they may have been unintentionally) what should the ref do? (apart from dig a big hole!!!)
Cheers
thats why rolling subs are a daft idea
 
Rolling subs and team sheets are the norm in my neck of the woods.

Prior to the match, I check the team sheets and see how many subs a team has. During the match unless a player has been red carded, if they start the match with 4 subs, I want to be seeing 4 subs stood/sat in contrasting tops within their teams area. Manager wants to make a change when play has stopped, they do the swap over, quick count of the player on the pitch. This can be verified by the number of subs on the sidelines. If you see only 3 on the side, quick check to see if one has gone walk about or have the slipped an extra player on.

Maybe it's just me, I can't see how a manager can "accidentally" put the wrong number of players on the pitch. Seen it happen a few times in matches my son has played. In the 6 seasons I have been refereeing, not happened to me yet and always do my best to ensure it never does!
 
My league has "reusable" subs, which I guess is the same as roll on roll off.

I have to tell the league about which players come on and off so just stop my watch and record who goes off an comes on.

Not had a team make more than 5 subs in a match yet.
 
thats why rolling subs are a daft idea

Disagree.

Rolling subs are a pain for us but the right thing for the grassroots game to get more people involved and more game time.

As was said above the key way to operate this is not to let 23 players onto the pitch - granted easier said than done if there are a lot of substitutions.

When I give managers the flag I confirm they know it's rolling subs, which most are grateful for the acknowledgement. Follow that up with 'you can make as many changes as you wish and as often as you wantonce there is a break in play, but you MUST make sure your player coming on doesn't enter the FOP until the player coming off has stepped off. That's the quickest and most efficient way for us both.

They usually comply. Of course you still have to go across each time which is a ball ache, but at least when you're insisting the player coming on waits off the pitch they understand why.
 
We have rolling subs and no ARs in a lot of leagues.
Higher up, if there are ARs, then usually the subs have to wear bibs and wait for a stoppage, and make a quick check with AR1.
Lower down, at hobby level, it is up to the referee. The sensible refs tell the captains to make sure the subs happen close to halfway (no walking off the pitch the other side), and that 12 players on the pitch is an instant caution. No need for bibs. No need for a stoppage. At hobby level, with no ARs, this works in my experience.

In the hobby leagues rolling subs are essential otherwise the teams wouldn't be able to get enough players - that is the reality in my neck of the woods.
This is also pretty much how it works in futsal, ice hockey etc.
 
so you mean you dont do proper substitution procedure
I mean: we have a lot of hobby leagues which are not so serious/competitive yet are officiated and there are rolling subs allowed without stoppages. Perhaps this is related to being in a part of the world where ice hockey and indoor hockey are probably as popular or more popular participation sports than football.

The laws state:
"Return Substitutions
The use of return substitutions is only permitted in the lowest levels (grassroots/
recreational) of football, subject to the agreement of the member association
concerned."

The laws do not explain what exactly return substitutions are. I don't think it is synonymous with "rolling substitutions" but my guess is that this is the section that enables country FAs to create their own sub laws for grassroots football.
 
Ah. Well, if that's part of the competition rules, then so be it.
In Australia, what you call 'rolling subs' is called 'unlimited interchange'. 'Rolling subs' is what we call 'anytime' subs (ie while play is continuing), usually left for preseason matches, really young matches or some other friendly format.

I use 'rolling subs' in the UK context when I discuss it on here.

Personally, I think a few refs on here have a bit of a bee in their bonnet over this. We're there for the players - so if that means that they're using a permitted modification for their benefit that that's more important than our sense of what's 'right proper football'. Can rolling substitutions cause problems? Well, define 'problem'. Teams may often fail to follow correct procedure and do it not from halfway, or have the player come on first. The extent of the 'problem' I've ever seen that cause is a very half hearted whinge from a player on the team doing the right thing - and it's a very, very easy problem to deal with.

I pity those of you whose local association has, for whatever reason, deemed it a requirement for the official to attend each substitution. In rolling subs, that's just ridiculous and completely unnecessary. It's a waste of everybody's time, tires the ref out and makes the referee look like a pedantic, overly officious twit. Even with NAR's we don't expect the AR to attend each change - for the same reasons. I would if I was relatively close, but that's about it.

Actually, I'll stand corrected. Yes, sometimes you'll get teams that are annoying, especially a junior coach who wants to make 30 subs a game. But that's also somewhat expected at that level, and there are ways to manage that too (substitutions on consecutive stoppages are really irritating). For the most part, those levels will expect a lot of changes, so no big deal. And when it's, say O/35 the players will generally all be grateful for it! The only other issue is when it's done right at the end of a half. As a result, every referee I know becomes extremely deaf in the final minute of each half. In the extreme rarity is when a team will try to call for them to interrupt a quick throw. Again, selective deafness fixes that. The time consumed can be an issue, so with rolling subs most referees don't want for the sub to get into position - they'll pretty much blow the whistle as soon as he's on the field. Most coaches are smart enough to be aware of this. Sometimes you'll get an argument when it was a defender not yet in position and the other team gets a good attack/goal.

But let's not pretend that limited substitutions aren't without problems either. It can place big demands on unfit players, it creates more paperwork for the referee, and can easily result in teams being 'punished' when they've used all their substitutions but then a player gets injured, particularly as the result of a foul (or, on the other hand, rolling subs allows a temporarily injured player to be immediately replaced, which I think is a good thing) Not to mention the issue around extra time.

But that's perhaps part of the point; that it's a tactical decision. But in lower levels perhaps there's no need for that sort of tactical restriction, so it's good to just let the guys play in whatever manner suits them.
 
Never trust the managers for anything.

Re-read responsabilities of the referee. If you don't like them, please don't become last weeks ref for the rest of us.

You have overall responsability for the game, and overseeing the correct substitution procedure - every time. what if you send off nr 12, and they deny he was even on the pitch. Your match record shows where he was on or off!

I guess you love having assistant - means you can leave them to all the decisions and do even less.

Suck it up princess, it's what you get paid for.

NB - I actually love referees like this, means that in overall rankings it's another one below me and i havent even got my kit on yet!!
 
I pity those of you whose local association has, for whatever reason, deemed it a requirement for the official to attend each substitution. In rolling subs, that's just ridiculous and completely unnecessary. It's a waste of everybody's time, tires the ref out and makes the referee look like a pedantic, overly officious twit. Even with NAR's we don't expect the AR to attend each change - for the same reasons. I would if I was relatively close, but that's about it.
Regrettably Capn, it's not a local association ruling, it's a basic requirement in the LOTG. Page 70 simply states 'Players are to be inspected before the match begins and substitutes before they enter the FOP'. Which in my opinion leaves us between a rock and a hard place in a world of rolling subs. Either we apply the LOTG and (as you say) look like a pedantic twit. Or we don't and potentially get marked down in an assessment and (far less likely but more importantly) run the risk of a sub coming on having put jewellery back on, forgotten shin pads etc.

Obviously we could unilaterally decide that this Law is foolish and doesn't need to be applied .. but then this opens up questions over many other 'pedantic' laws like undershorts, sock tape, standing in the wrong half to take a kick off etc etc.

Easier by far to simply ask us to properly check the kit of ALL players / subs before the start of the game and leave it at that ....
 
As with many things, rules can be bent. Define inspection :)
Looking at the sub from 50 yards away doesn't seem to be breaking that law to me. Stretching it, certainly. But as I said - bending, not breaking.

Oh, and HRW? Check your attitude, because it absolutely stinks. Don't appreciate your comments one bit.
 
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